Wide is MUCH better than Tall at Culture/Tourism. What am I missing?

Well, there's obviously a strategy difference between us—I always have Broadway and the Eiffel Tower before Hotels; you always go the other way (I use Oxford to pop Radio and jump into the Modern era early, getting a head start on the ideologies). Either way, you're talking about a strategy that relies entirely on Landmarks and doesn't generate enough Artifacts to fill Museums outside of core cities. Split the difference between your estimates—call it 20 Landmarks on a continent. Say the average era is Classical, you go Freedom (you probably won't have New Deal when you get to Hotels), you pass Historical Landmarks. 8 culture per Landmark, 4 tourism with a Hotel in every city—80 tourism altogether (120 when you get New Deal). In a tall game, maybe you only dig up half that many and stick them all in Museums etc. With hotels, you get 30 from the Artifacts themselves. Stick two in the Louvre and eight in your four Museums, you get another 24 from theming bonuses. Advantage: Landmarks—eventually. However, the Artifacts and theming bonuses are generating 44 Tourism per turn in the Industrial era; the Landmarks generate nothing until Refrigeration, and don't reach their full output until you've passed WC legislation and gotten a Tier 2 tenet (from a specific ideology). And this strategy requires you to conquer your entire continent and maintain tech parity with a 10+ city empire. It's certainly workable, but it's fairly narrowly applied.

I should amend what I said with two exceptions, though: if you get a great, faith-heavy religious start and can get multiple religious buildings up in every city in a wide empire, you might be able to win a cultural victory before Hotels even really come into play, especially if you can also stay on top of the culture/tourism Wonders. Also, if you finish Exploration late in the game, pivoting from tall to wide at the very end—to set up a bunch of little cities near hidden antiquity sites for Landmarks—would definitely help push you over the edge.

Edit: the above is @Roxlimn

Wigwam,

The main thing missing from your analysis is that it is cumulative tourism and cumulative culture that determine if you reach influential with others civs. The fact that a wide strategy won't have as much tourism in its capital as a tall strategy by the time hotels roll around is offset by the fact that wide play can potentially have higher tourism accumulated before then. So wide play should be leading in total tourism for most of the game while tall play should really spike at the end.

No, my point was that, generally speaking (France, Polynesia, India, and Sacred Sites all being exceptions), you can only generate so much tourism in a given game, no matter how tall or wide you go. There is a fixed number of Great Works that can be created; there is a limited number of Artifacts/Landmarks that can be produced. Thus, there is a limit to how much you can gain by building more than ~4 cities, even setting aside the sacrifices you have to make (in terms of science, social policies, happiness, etc.) to build 5+ cities. Where Great Works and Artifacts are concerned, that limit is actually reached very, very quickly—I don't think you ever need to build more than four cities to have enough slots to house them, unless you go completely berserk with Archaeologists (which, I would argue, is counterproductive). Roxlimn outlined a strong strategy to go wide and make use of Landmarks, but, as I explained above, it's a fairly narrow strategy. Going tall will always produce good results, allowing you to pursue whichever policies and ideologies you like and not requiring you to go to war. Roxlimn's strategy may produce better results, but it requires specific policy and ideology choices and successful early conquest.


Similarly, this is a strong strategy with narrow applications. As Sadato acknowledges at the top of the OP, it's weaker at high difficulties—you're very unlikely to get more than one religious building at Immortal+, and you might not get Sacred Sites at all. You might be able to consistently apply it with Ethiopia, but a one-civ strategy is still a fairly narrow one. There are extremely effective wide strategies for tourism, but going tall is more reliable and generally stronger.
 
Well, there's obviously a strategy difference between us—I always have Broadway and the Eiffel Tower before Hotels; you always go the other way (I use Oxford to pop Radio and jump into the Modern era early, getting a head start on the ideologies). Either way, you're talking about a strategy that relies entirely on Landmarks and doesn't generate enough Artifacts to fill Museums outside of core cities. Split the difference between your estimates—call it 20 Landmarks on a continent. Say the average era is Classical, you go Freedom (you probably won't have New Deal when you get to Hotels), you pass Historical Landmarks. 8 culture per Landmark, 4 tourism with a Hotel in every city—80 tourism altogether (120 when you get New Deal). In a tall game, maybe you only dig up half that many and stick them all in Museums etc. With hotels, you get 30 from the Artifacts themselves. Stick two in the Louvre and eight in your four Museums, you get another 24 from theming bonuses. Advantage: Landmarks—eventually. However, the Artifacts and theming bonuses are generating 44 Tourism per turn in the Industrial era; the Landmarks generate nothing until Refrigeration, and don't reach their full output until you've passed WC legislation and gotten a Tier 2 tenet (from a specific ideology). And this strategy requires you to conquer your entire continent and maintain tech parity with a 10+ city empire. It's certainly workable, but it's fairly narrowly applied.

I should amend what I said with two exceptions, though: if you get a great, faith-heavy religious start and can get multiple religious buildings up in every city in a wide empire, you might be able to win a cultural victory before Hotels even really come into play, especially if you can also stay on top of the culture/tourism Wonders. Also, if you finish Exploration late in the game, pivoting from tall to wide at the very end—to set up a bunch of little cities near hidden antiquity sites for Landmarks—would definitely help push you over the edge.

Wigwam- the guy I linked to in my previous post wins at turn ~150 on emperor. I don't think he built any tourism wonders. Wide can work well and apparently better than tall as I don't see how a tall strategy could win that fast.
 
Similarly, this is a strong strategy with narrow applications. As Sadato acknowledges at the top of the OP, it's unlikely to work at high difficulties—you're very unlikely to get more than one religious building at Immortal+, and you might not get Sacred Sites at all. You might be able to consistently apply it with Ethiopia, but a one-civ strategy is still a fairly narrow one.

One could argue that a tall strategy that requires getting all those critical wonders is narrow and risky. What if a rival ai is going tall culture too? You aren't guaranteed to get those wonders. I just played tall as Poland and got beat by <5 turns to Louvre and Uffizi and it screwed me (immortal difficulty). Everything is a risk.

Also, there are plenty of civs that can pull off that wide strat. He did it with Egypt too.
 
You don't need to get all the Wonders if you go tall, and even if you do run up against stiff opposition, you can easily pivot into a science or diplomatic victory. Losing the Louvre and Uffizi may have screwed your culture game, but it didn't mean certain defeat.

Sadato's strategy&#8212;as he acknowledges&#8212;will not reliably work on high difficulties (it also won't reliably work in MP). Even on Emperor, it's not really reliable. If somebody beats you to Sacred Sites, you just say "oh well" and restart the game; you won't be able to come from behind and win any other way when you're so far behind in tech.

There's a philosophical difference here. In one camp, an expertly min-maxed strategy that will win the game in the shortest number of turns (or with the highest possible score) if everything breaks right is "better." This often involves cooked settings, rerolling start locations, or quitting and restarting if somebody doesn't break right (in this case, only the latter). In the other camp, a strategy that gives the best chance of simply winning the game, regardless of settings or circumstances, is "better." It's clear that I fall into the latter camp, but I'm not going to pretend it's the one and only truth. We're kind of just arguing semantics here.
 
So can't we just sum it up as it has always been: A strong capital (huge population and stacked buildings for whatever victory you are pursuing) is 90% of the battle. Additional cities past that are for minor boosts to gold, science, map control, and if you have the artifacts/works to use them, great works slots.
 
You don't necessarily need to be taking a diplomatic hit for taking artifacts. They'll give you a pass if you promise not to do it again and if you clean out a civ's territory of the ones you want in a single turn you get all the artifacts without the penalty.

If you're getting all of the artifacts in the world you're probably playing on too low a difficulty for your abilities. You shouldn't be crushing the other civs that badly in science while pursuing your wide culture victory.

I don't think it's excessive to assume you'll get a museum theming bonus if you have the artifacts to fill it. The artifacts just have to be from the same era and the vast majority of artifacts will be from the ancient or classical era. Plus you can trade.
 
Never happened to me neither to be limited by the number of available GW spots in my 4 cities, this can't be an argument.

So, if something doesn't happen in your games it simply cannot be? Interesting. :)

You should be able generate more than 4 great works of literature or music. You get a couple of national wonders to stick books in, but nothing for music. So yeah, it can happen.

So, to give you a number because you asked for it, level 5 would be the cutoff. Level 5 would be like level 1 in Civ 4.

Civ 4 didn't have any of these mechanics. I don't think the existence of Stacks of Death in Civ 4 somehow correlate to the difficulty of generating culture and tourism in Civ 5.
 
Well true Steve. But I see no proof in this thread at all that wider is MUCH better then taller. I have seen no proof that it is even a little better. Not from what I read here, nor from any game I have played.

But it is not worth anymore time, so peace out!! See you in other threads!!
 
You don't need to get all the Wonders if you go tall, and even if you do run up against stiff opposition, you can easily pivot into a science or diplomatic victory. Losing the Louvre and Uffizi may have screwed your culture game, but it didn't mean certain defeat.

Sadato's strategy&#8212;as he acknowledges&#8212;will not reliably work on high difficulties (it also won't reliably work in MP). Even on Emperor, it's not really reliable. If somebody beats you to Sacred Sites, you just say "oh well" and restart the game; you won't be able to come from behind and win any other way when you're so far behind in tech.

There's a philosophical difference here. In one camp, an expertly min-maxed strategy that will win the game in the shortest number of turns (or with the highest possible score) if everything breaks right is "better." This often involves cooked settings, rerolling start locations, or quitting and restarting if somebody doesn't break right (in this case, only the latter). In the other camp, a strategy that gives the best chance of simply winning the game, regardless of settings or circumstances, is "better." It's clear that I fall into the latter camp, but I'm not going to pretend it's the one and only truth. We're kind of just arguing semantics here.

I would think when using his wide strategy that you could figure out relatively early if you're likely to get sacred sites or not based on start location, neighbors, and huts you find. If things aren't looking good then pivot to something else. At that point you haven't locked yourself into that strategy. You seem to give a tall player the benefit of intelligently adapting yet the wide player's only recourse is to quit and start a new game?

Also, his strategy might not require getting 2 of the faith bought buildings (though it certainly requires sacred sites). Getting both allowed him to win at turn 150 but maybe getting just one he would still win by 200-250. That's still damn good and faster than I've heard of people achieving in BNW going tall.

For the record, though, I don't favor one strategy over the other.
 
Well, yeah, this particular wide strategy, which deliberately avoids science to keep the cost of religious buildings down, will be very hard to recover if things don't go to plan, and that's true even if you do figure out relatively early that you're going to miss Sacred Sites.
 
Well, yeah, this particular wide strategy, which deliberately avoids science to keep the cost of religious buildings down, will be very hard to recover if things don't go to plan, and that's true even if you do figure out relatively early that you're going to miss Sacred Sites.

What? You could figure out if you have a decent chance of getting sacred sites within 20 or so turns. If the civs you've met haven't gone piety first then you've got a decent shot. Even if they did they won't necessarily pick sacred sites. And he avoids science for cheaper faith buildings but you don't necessarily have to if you happen to have really good faith generation to make up for it.

Following his guide to the letter might be unforgiving but you can easily adapt to the situation and go for something like it that is less risky. You might not win by turn 150 without following it exactly but could probably still win with a variation of it after that regardless and more safely.
 
20 turns? At best, you've moved one scout 30 tiles and a second scout 20 tiles. Depending on terrain, your warrior has gone 20-40 tiles. This is assuming no bad luck with barbarians, no dead ends, etc. Even on a Pangaea map, there is almost no chance you've met all the other civs. You don't have a pantheon yet, unless you met a couple of religious city-states. You don't know how much room you have to expand into, what your faith-generating potential will be, whether one of your neighbors is likely to DoW you, etc. etc. If you open Piety, the AI might have four cities before you have two; you could find yourself boxed in and have to fight rather than laying down an ICS carpet. If you open Liberty, you still might get boxed in and you'll be slower to enhance and reform your religion.

In any event, I don't think Sacred Sites is the biggest hurdle&#8212;I think it's the two follower beliefs. You need to enhance your religion while one of three religious buildings is still available; it really won't work with just one (that means losing half your tourism). On Immortal, even, but certainly on Deity, I don't like those odds.
 
Within 20 turns you can meet 2-3 neighbors and see their opening policy. You can see if you have religious CSs nearby for potential faith. You know if faith heavy civs like Ethiopia or Celts are in the game from pantheon announcements. And you have a very good idea of whether you have terrain nearby that can support a faith generating pantheon. At 20 turns you have a lot of information to go on. You obviously don't know for sure that you'll get sacred sites but you start to get an idea of your chances.

Also, with just one of the faith buildings you can still get a nice heads start on tourism. If he wins by turn 150 with 2 of them then why can't he win with just one at some later turn once he has stacked more artifacts in museums at that point? Maybe a wide strategy that supplements sacred sites with other tourism sources could be less risky but finish closer to 300+ turns. Still not bad and more on par with tall strategies.
 
Well true Steve. But I see no proof in this thread at all that wider is MUCH better then taller. I have seen no proof that it is even a little better. Not from what I read here, nor from any game I have played.
Well, I don't really either, to be honest. In fact, I wouldn't really call what I do wide or tall. I find seven to ten cities to be pretty good. I'd rather situate each guild in a different city so as not to have to sink to much population from any one. Of course, these all need to be gardenable cities, so that's not always possible, but if you stop at 4 cities that can make it even less possible. ;)

In general, exploiting resources is supposed to be what guides expansion in a 4X game. But they've been fairly marginalized in Civ V that pursuing luxury or strategic resources is often just not worth the unhappiness of dropping settlers. So now expansion is some kind of tedious numbers games involving the optimal staffing of buildings.
 
Sorry Xaviarlol, but KrikkitTwo's arguments are more solid. I'm not saying tall is the way to go, but he is understanding the maths better than you. It's clear if you take for example airports and hotels. They clearly add no advantage to having lots of cities. They only enhace the output of limited resources, such as wonders and great works.
So, by having airports and hotels in all your cities, you increase all your tourism by the same, no matter if you have 4 or 15 cities, since all your wonders and arts will be in those cities.

So yeah, you get more slots, but like KrikkitTwo said, usually you have way more slots than works. And in the case you miss some slots, adding 1 or 2 cities would be enough, no need to go wide.

He explained this to you, and you even said his argumetns were stupid. I think he is right, you just didn't understand the maths

I don't think you are understanding what I am saying. I completely understand what he was saying, and what you are saying, but my point is that the POTENTIAL for wide is greater than that of TALL. More slots = more potential for more tourism. Hotels and airports allow you multiply your great works effect, which you can now have more of due to more slots. I said that in every single game I've played, I ran out of great work slots. (I play on Immortal, marathon). Wide is simply BETTER than Tall with all things being even. Because it has a much higher potential than is possible with Tall.

My G&K mod targeted the imbalance between wide and tall. A lot of the new changes in BNW helped close the gap. When I update my mod for BNW, I will likely look at options in strengthening Tall a bit more against wide. Probably by increasing unhappiness for number of cities a bit more. And perhaps setting something up so that tall can get access to more GW slots. Still on the drawing board.

The point of this thread in a way is to help me see the other sides argument that Tall is actually competitive. Thus far I am still convinced that Wide is simply better than Tall for culture victory.
 
Did somebody mention something in this thread about science buildings making faith buildings cost more production, or did I just imagine that?
 
Agreed. It isn't massive. The penalty's only purpose is to slow down late-game science snowballing (runaways). It is extremely easy to break even on science, which in the context of this thread means more tourism with the same tech pace.

It actually doesn't counter the snowballing. I was playing a classic 4 city game, slowly worked my way up to 1st place in literacy and then the bastard Swedes overtook me, because they had about 5 times as many cities.

Now the game's unnwinnable, as I'm three techs behind, because cities for a diplomatic victory all have 700 plus influence from a civ with autocracy from their gunboat diplomacy policy...
 
Heh. It is a soft counter, which is a good thing. While it often doesn't feel like it, Civ5 is still a 4X game. The Swedes deserve to have decent science if they went through the trouble of getting and managing 5 times as many cities.

Imagine the lead they would have had if there was no penalty at all.
 
Did somebody mention something in this thread about science buildings making faith buildings cost more production, or did I just imagine that?

Someone mentioned that you might want to lag tech or avoid going up ages if you want to buy a lot of faith-buildings since they get pricier in a hurry with age ups.
 
Honestly, with Mandate of Heaven and two faith buildings in a wide empire, advancing an age in tech means that you might only be able to buy one and a half faith buildings per turn instead of two. Oh noooo. In all the games I've played with this strategy, I found myself having to just crap out missionaries to avoid an expensive great prophet, while I waited for my settlers to get to where they needed to be. One of the best things about this strategy is the lack of a hard cap on tourism, you can literally just put down a settler anywhere and get +4 tourism. On large maps, this can give you upwards of 120 tourism long before hotels even come into the picture. Considering you're going to be affecting everyone in the world from world congress at the absolute latest, often victory is simply a matter of opening borders and missionary spamming until win.

On the versatility side of things though, keep in mind that there are very easy ways to see if your strategy is over. If you didn't get two religion buildings? Oh well, use your stupid amount of faith on say, holy warriors. Didn't get the reformation belief? Grab the Great Person one, or Jesuit Education. hell, you could even just convert to the religion that DID get sacred sites, and if they had the other two religion buildings, Congrats, that +4 tourism just became +8. There are ways to still win if things don't go exactly to plan.
 
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