The best Civ 5 civ is....

What I am trying to accomplish with Polynesia is a rugged strategy that doesn't require pangea maps to work.

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You see, there can be no rugged strategy on Deity. You learn the game well enough, you earn the right to fight Deity AIs. Simple do A, then B, then C will get you killed on Deity map if you don't know how to fight well and when it is better to back away from fighting. Have to play Deity by the ear, just saying..

Maxym said:

Please post a save of a pre t150 win on deity with non cooked settings with any civ and I am sure you will have people clamoring to know the secret.

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Yes please. Make it pangaea with random civ, since these maps are so trivial that OP doesn't even bother with them.

Why are you guys feeding this guy? Trolling is a lost art that no one does properly anymore, people should give up lol

Everyone knows Barbarians are the best civ anyway.

Light Cleric said:

Why are you guys feeding this guy? Trolling is a lost art that no one does properly anymore, people should give up lol

Everyone knows Barbarians are the best civ anyway.

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Mods don't agree it's trolling, so why not to put a serious mask on and have fun?

Play the same strategy as Greece, and end up with most of them as allies. So Greece should at least be as good at this as Polynesia, with the drawback that you won't meet as many civs early on, but you can't choose aesthetics early on anyway.

The Pilgrim said:

Yes please. Make it pangaea with random civ, since these maps are so trivial that OP doesn't even bother with them.

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My tier list is going to have to be:

1. Maya. They're incredibly versatile, as has been repeated ad naseum. Their ability to do whatever they want thanks to easy religion and boosted science, makes them the best civ, IMO.
2. Korea. Wow. These guys tech like there's no tomorrow. Sure, they need universities to really get into their stride, but they're incredible afterwards. They're superior to Babylon by a country mile. This is because due to escalating GP costs, not to mention that a good half of your GPs will come from sources other than naturally popping them, means that at most, their boost provides rt150% of the scientists of other civilizations. This is 122%, or a bit over a scientist a game. The early GS is great, but I'd rather have 5.33/city in boosts at Education than 8/turn at Writing. Ten cities, assuming half have observatories, makes that a 45.33/turn bonus at Education, as opposed to the 10.64/turn provided by the Writing GS. The early GS is lost in the snowball. The extra GS later, too, is completely lost by endgame. Also, that's not even going into their bonus science from buildings and wonders in the capital, each of which is half of a research agreement. The UUs are gravy.
3. Inca. For reasons I need not restate, as they have been explained to death in this thread.
4. Ethiopia. They're arguably the best at Deity, but this is a list for any level. The bonuses are great, blahdeeblah.
5. Arabia. The ability to double luxes with a beeline that fits in nicely with their desert start bias, gain a tremendous amount of GPT from trade routes when ICSing, and a god-tier UU make this an extremely strong civ. The doubled Oil is nice, but not really necessary with such a wide desert civ.

Japan, in my opinion, is the best Civ. Bushido just can't be beat by any other UA. Experienced units that never die make wars a simple march to the other civ's capitol. I play on Emperor, though, so this could be different on higher difficulties, but I see no reason why it would be.

Egypt is a close second. I know most people don't like them, but with the right strategy, as with any civ, they are deadly. Some of my best games are with Egypt. Get tradition, liberty, piety, commerce/patronage, freedom. The tradition wonder bonus, coupled with Egypt's UA, allow you to build wonders before the other civs. If you get marble, you can spam wonders, acquiring nearly all in the game. Build 5 core cities, and puppet any you conquer. I usually end up with 5 core cities and 4-5 puppeted cities. Continue to build yourself up, but don't neglect science. Use Faith to purchase great scientists, and get messenger to the God's if you're afraid of being out-teched (although I've never had that problem).

This gives me a great civ for a cultural victory. Usually produces on Epic games 1800-2200 science, 800-1000 culture, 500-1000 gpt (GET MACCHU PICCHU), and something like 50 happiness. Cities are all level 20+, with the first four being 35+ and the capitol being 40+. I was never out-teched by more than 3% literacy, and won a cultural victory in I believe 1916. Although, my friend as Austria was beginning to run away with the literacy. And he got the Syndey Opera house, otherwise the victory would have been quicker.

After these two, I like Sweden (great for diplomatic victories, if played correctly) and China. The Celts are nice as well, especially with the belief that allows you to purchase pre-industrial land units with faith.

tomtom5858 said:

I'd rather have 5.33/city in boosts at Education than 8/turn at Writing. Ten cities, assuming half have observatories, makes that a 45.33/turn bonus at Education, as opposed to the 10.64/turn provided by the Writing GS. The early GS is lost in the snowball.

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Giving up early tech advantage to build stuff is not a snowball. It's more like the snow fort at the base of the hill.

Babylon is the true snowball science civ, and even Korea can't beat them.

Dave is right. As with any VC, you will almost be certainly faster in science if you reach key sci techs earlier. This is why Babylon's UA is just insane - with Korea, it takes almost 90-100 turns depending on tech speed to make full use of your UA, while with Babylon you start profiting around t20 and are VERY likely to reach education handily before t90, usually close to t80 or even sooner.

Also, the assumption of having observatories before universities is odd =)

I know i've already discussed korea in this thread quite and bit and a little babylon. But times I've said korea was too slow I was only referring to domination games.

I haven't played enough science games to know whats the norm and whats not, but I think for science victory, korea would be just about as good as babylon.

tomtom5858 said:

My tier list is going to have to be:

1. Maya. They're incredibly versatile, as has been repeated ad naseum. Their ability to do whatever they want thanks to easy religion and boosted science, makes them the best civ, IMO.
2. Korea. Wow. These guys tech like there's no tomorrow. Sure, they need universities to really get into their stride, but they're incredible afterwards. They're superior to Babylon by a country mile. This is because due to escalating GP costs, not to mention that a good half of your GPs will come from sources other than naturally popping them, means that at most, their boost provides rt150% of the scientists of other civilizations. This is 122%, or a bit over a scientist a game. The early GS is great, but I'd rather have 5.33/city in boosts at Education than 8/turn at Writing. Ten cities, assuming half have observatories, makes that a 45.33/turn bonus at Education, as opposed to the 10.64/turn provided by the Writing GS. The early GS is lost in the snowball. The extra GS later, too, is completely lost by endgame. Also, that's not even going into their bonus science from buildings and wonders in the capital, each of which is half of a research agreement. The UUs are gravy.
3. Inca. For reasons I need not restate, as they have been explained to death in this thread.
4. Ethiopia. They're arguably the best at Deity, but this is a list for any level. The bonuses are great, blahdeeblah.
5. Arabia. The ability to double luxes with a beeline that fits in nicely with their desert start bias, gain a tremendous amount of GPT from trade routes when ICSing, and a god-tier UU make this an extremely strong civ. The doubled Oil is nice, but not really necessary with such a wide desert civ.

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I disagree on Korea out teching Babylon. Yes they can produce more beakers when they get universities up but Babylon will have had Education long before Korea will. I personally find there UA most effective when working GA's or planting GE's as it eliminates some of the opportunity cost from taking your focus away from science.

pkf said:

Dave is right. As with any VC, you will almost be certainly faster in science if you reach key sci techs earlier. This is why Babylon's UA is just insane - with Korea, it takes almost 90-100 turns depending on tech speed to make full use of your UA, while with Babylon you start profiting around t20 and are VERY likely to reach education handily before t90, usually close to t80 or even sooner.

Also, the assumption of having observatories before universities is odd =)

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What this guy said.

Babylon must keep expanding or will eventually lose its edge.

DaveMcW said:

Giving up early tech advantage to build stuff is not a snowball. It's more like the snow fort at the base of the hill.

Babylon is the true snowball science civ, and even Korea can't beat them.

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Reaching Education at T80 means absolutely nothing if I'm hitting Plastics at T150.

pkf said:

Dave is right. As with any VC, you will almost be certainly faster in science if you reach key sci techs earlier. This is why Babylon's UA is just insane - with Korea, it takes almost 90-100 turns depending on tech speed to make full use of your UA, while with Babylon you start profiting around t20 and are VERY likely to reach education handily before t90, usually close to t80 or even sooner.

Also, the assumption of having observatories before universities is odd =)

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I remembered that for the second calculation, but forgot for the first for whatever reason, haha. Like I said to Dave, I diddly-don't care about reaching Education at T80 as opposed to T100 (which can be clipped by running Merchants or Artists, as long as you remember to reassign them so you don't pop a GA or GM), I care about T150 Plastics.

jungleman3955 said:

I disagree on Korea out teching Babylon. Yes they can produce more beakers when they get universities up but Babylon will have had Education long before Korea will. I personally find there UA most effective when working GA's or planting GE's as it eliminates some of the opportunity cost from taking your focus away from science.

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Yeah, that's actually my favourite way of running Korea, is as culture. For all of their tech prowess, reaching Industrial for Freedom as your third tree is always fun


But people: Don't just look at the early-game numbers. Try playing Korea. Instead of salivating over a T20 GS, try salivating at T180 SV. Your single-mindedness of this early GS is unhealthy. I admit, Babylon is an utterly fantastic civ, and are easily top 10 (probably 7th, in my mind), but they aren't the best science civ. 2 GS doesn't make up for hundreds of beakers by endgame.

I think I'm going to need to see a screenshot of a 180 SV before I believe it, no offense.

tomtom5858 said:

But people: Don't just look at the early-game numbers. Try playing Korea. Instead of salivating over a T20 GS, try salivating at T180 SV. Your single-mindedness of this early GS is unhealthy. I admit, Babylon is an utterly fantastic civ, and are easily top 10 (probably 7th, in my mind), but they aren't the best science civ. 2 GS doesn't make up for hundreds of beakers by endgame.

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Just 2?

Babylon wants as many cities as possible, all with unis running 2 scientists. Just keep adding cities.

Unresolved said:

I think I'm going to need to see a screenshot of a 180 SV before I believe it, no offense.

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If T194 is possible as Rome, Korea can get T180. Here is him researching Flight as T168, presumably after Plastics. I, personally, have never achieved a sub-200 SV, but it's completely theoretically possible.

budweiser said:

Just 2?

Babylon wants as many cities as possible, all with unis running 2 scientists. Just keep adding cities.

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As I said in a prior post, their 50% increase can't be equal to 50%. Why? You get a good half of your GPs from sources other than naturally spawning. Also, increasing GP costs. This makes their max spawning rate equal to rt150% that of other civs, or around 122%. In my games, that's one. The other comes from Writing.

Well, my intuition says they are equal in terms of how fast they each can get and SV, but one goes tall and the other goes wide to get there.