Naval warfare on Deity

RaidandTrade · May 22, 2015

I'm new to deity and have never been big on naval warfare so am trying to get some benchmarks.

What's your ideal fleet size and composition?

My recent game was a rage quit where I had six range promoted Ships of the Line attacking Ethiopia and a Privateer or two ready to swoop. Every time the city got to half three privateers rushed out so my fleet was slowly reduced in health and privateers.

In my current game, I've got six Galleas and a couple of Tiremes off the coast of Attila's Court earning promotions on his troops and fleet but am wondering whether I'm going to hit the same problem.

Any tips to avoid going down in history as the world's worst admiral?!?

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BlackWizard · May 22, 2015

RaidandTrade said:
I'm new to deity and have never been big on naval warfare so am trying to get some benchmarks.

What's your ideal fleet size and composition?

My recent game was a rage quit where I had six range promoted Ships of the Line attacking Ethiopia and a Privateer or two ready to swoop. Every time the city got to half three privateers rushed out so my fleet was slowly reduced in health and privateers.

In my current game, I've got six Galleas and a couple of Tiremes off the coast of Attila's Court earning promotions on his troops and fleet but am wondering whether I'm going to hit the same problem.

Any tips to avoid going down in history as the world's worst admiral?!?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Three privateers from one city in same turn? What are you talking about..Kill privateers first and try to capture them with your own privateers. Six ship of lines should be enough capturing cities. Can you shoot city with all our ships? Try capturing secondary city first if current city is giving you problem.

consentient · May 22, 2015

5 frigates and 2 privateers for each city that I want to assault simultaneously. For an AI that threatens to be a runaway, I'd attack at least 2 of his cities simultaneously. The problem you faced is annoying but the idea is to get at least a couple of the frigates to Range, then Logistics, then supply.

If you build the Frigates in a city with Military Academy and have finished Honor, they will get to Range much more quickly.

beetle · May 22, 2015

consentient said:
the idea is to get at least a couple of the frigates to Range, then Logistics, then supply.

Why range before logistics? Move in, shoot, shoot, move out -- still keeps ships out of range, but they earn xp faster. For Galleasses, range first I think makes sense. I can never make them work though.

stormtrooper412 · May 22, 2015

logistics allows ships to become naval keshiks? Nice, I didn't know that

consentient · May 22, 2015

beetle said:
Why range before logistics? Move in, shoot, shoot, move out -- still keeps ships out of range, but they earn xp faster. For Galleasses, range first I think makes sense. I can never make them work though.

Well his problem was that his ships were being damaged, presumably from city ranged attacks. There is no chance in hell that privateers can take down frigates in one turn without city assistance. So range is the best solution for that.

Myself I'm not a fan of naval combat at all. I prefer beachheads and artillery. It's faster in many cases.

RaidandTrade · May 22, 2015

Yep - ships taking damage from privateers so more vulnerable and it seemed to be an endless cycle. My privateers would destroy rather than capture but destroy put them in range and they got pummelled so next time more came at me, my shooters didn't have a privateer to ZoC them and they then took more damage.

I was basically getting chewed up in the harbour!

stormtrooper412 said:
logistics allows ships to become naval keshiks? Nice, I didn't know that

Me neither. If my Galleas assault on Attila goes well then my next wave on Gandhi will have something to try. Building that fleet at the moment.

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beetle · May 22, 2015

consentient said:
Well his problem was that his ships were being damaged, presumably from city ranged attacks.

Logistics is great for avoiding city ranged attacks.

RaidandTrade said:
Yep - ships taking damage from privateers so more vulnerable and it seemed to be an endless cycle.

Getting privateers to survive long enough to earn the logistics promotions is my main stumbling block with naval warfare.

It sounds to me like you are engaging the enemy fleet too aggressively. You definitely do not want to be fighting ships within the range of AI cities. Take advantage of the AI stupidity. If he can't see your ships at the start of his turn he won't come after you -- even though you were just shooting at him on your turn! Frigates with either range or logistics can take advantage of this. You may need to use another ship (which does not get to attack) to provide sight during your turn. If your fleet is unpromoted, then only attack -- and sink -- the one leading enemy ship per turn. Again, if you end your turn two hexes from AI border and two hexes from any enemy ship -- the AI will just keep the rest of his fleet on station, in his harbor.

RaidandTrade · May 22, 2015

Thanks Beetle. Will give it a try.

Next question: What, if anything, do you do about stationed archers/horse archers? They don't seem lurable with an injured boat as a target. Swimming a worker all that way seems extreme!

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BlackWizard · May 22, 2015

beetle said:
Why range before logistics? Move in, shoot, shoot, move out -- still keeps ships out of range, but they earn xp faster. For Galleasses, range first I think makes sense. I can never make them work though.

Naval units gets range as 3rd promotion. So you get it much much faster than logistic

beetle · May 22, 2015

BlackWizard said:
Naval units gets range as 3rd promotion. So you get it much much faster than logistic

Good point! Both RaidandTrade and conconsentient were talking about larger (6+ frigates) fleets, and with that many range makes focused fire easier. Range being available earlier makes that approach much more feasible. Just keep in mind that range-first means logistics is now your fifth promotion. It takes a bit to get there.

RaidandTrade said:
Next question: What, if anything, do you do about stationed archers/horse archers?

Why do you care? Take the city early in the turn, waiting one turn if you must. You will have 3-4 ranged shots to take care of any units hiding behind the city. It is not like land attacks where the AI might immediately recapture.

z284pwr · May 22, 2015

BlackWizard said:
Naval units gets range as 3rd promotion. So you get it much much faster than logistic

If focusing on land units I still think I would take Bombardment 3 over Range just to be one promotion from Logistics. Other than attacking cities even with Targeting I would probably go Targeting 3 first simply because of the AI's incompetence with ranged naval warfare.

RaidandTrade · May 23, 2015

beetle said:
Why do you care?

(About the stationed archer).

I was caring because I was starting the fight with non-promoted units and they were getting pummelled.

Better strategy thanks to you guys so I no longer do care.

Took what felt like about thirty turns but got it done in the end.

Ended up going range first for most units. Have a few coming up to decision time and will take those to logistics. (My ranged units have logistics now too - awesome).

Monty, my next target, was MUCH easier with the promoted units. Lining up next victim now.

Thanks for the insight guys.

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LordBalkoth · May 23, 2015

beetle said:
Just keep in mind that range-first means logistics is now your fifth promotion. It takes a bit to get there.

Except having range means those units aren't getting hit by the city or unit(s) in the city. You can shell with impunity and don't have to retreat to heal...or worst case, as you indicated, you can bring more fire to bear on a city at once.

Olodune · May 23, 2015

BlackWizard said:
Naval units gets range as 3rd promotion. So you get it much much faster than logistic

Yes, otherwise Logistics all the way. Range first on the first 3-4 Frigates for me.

One thing to keep in mind: the AI is dreadful with ranged ships, but comparatively competent with melee ships. Watch out for large fleets of Ironclads, Sea Beggars, Turtle Ships, and Privateers. Use ZOC to protect valuable Frigates when engaging those types.

beetle · May 26, 2015

RaidandTrade said:
I was caring because I was starting the fight with non-promoted units and they were getting pummelled.

The damage dealt from cities tends to be much worse than from units. I tend to try and get logistics from units. If I have to move on to cities before then, then at least it means I am winning! Treat taking cities with frigate like you would with chariot archers: 4+ move in and take shots, the city hits one which retreats to heal, leaving 3+ to continue the assault. Taking the city is not the priority, getting to logistics is.

LordBalkoth said:
Except having range means those units aren't getting hit by the city or unit(s) in the city.

Logistics has the same benefit, but with xp being earned faster.

Olodune said:
Watch out for large fleets of Ironclads, Sea Beggars, Turtle Ships, and Privateers. Use ZOC to protect valuable Frigates when engaging those types.

Large melee fleets are my bane. Even if you are being careful, a leading ship can run into your small tactical group by accident (it was just trying to move through you, and won’t itself attack). Any nearby ships (that have not already moved) will then swoop in. In these situations, the AI uses ZOC well, so even if you are not killed immediately, the next turn will be very bad for you! Also, while the AI does not seem pick extra sight, it may have built the Great Lighthouse or opened Exploration.

Ending your movement two hexes away does not guarantee safety. But, most of the time, that is all you have to do.

LordBalkoth · May 26, 2015

beetle said:
Logistics has the same benefit, but with xp being earned faster.

No, it doesn't, because you have to wait 40 more XP to get Logistics than Range on ships (which, even with the Honor +50% XP, is another 10 turns of firing at cities). It also means you can bring more fire to bear on a city (or a unit) sooner. Yeah, a level 5 ship with Logistics is much better than a level 5 ship with Range. But a level 4 ship with Range is a hell of a lot better than a level 4 ship without Range.

beetle · May 26, 2015

We agree that logistics means bringing more focused fire. Are you waiting to engage until you have six or so ships? I tend to start with the first one, and just keep adding, so logistics-first does not interfere with focus fire (because I don’t have that when I start). Or this something I am probably doing wrong?

LordBalkoth said:
But a level 4 3 ship with Range is a hell of a lot better than a level 4 3 ship without Range.

Assuming I caught your typo, this is fine point, and I did not understand that this is what you were arguing earlier. I guess I just assumed that whatever you did to go from level 2 to level 3 can be used just as well to get you to level 4. If I have Brandenburg Gate or Autocracy buff, I would start ships with range rather than working hard to logistics.

Absent a large fleet, a level 4 ship with logistics is much better than a level 4 ship with range.

LordBalkoth · May 26, 2015

beetle said:
We agree that logistics means bringing more focused fire. Are you wait to engage until you have six or so ships? I tend to start with the first one, and just keep adding, so logistics-first does not interfere with focus fire (because I dont have that when I start). Or this something I am probably doing wrong?

It depends on the situation, and there are certainly times where I'd go Logistics first. The main goal is to avoid having your assault/battles/whatever cause delays due to having to send ships across the map to heal in friendly territory. You want to be able to keep pressing your assault, which sometimes means range is much better (especially if you need to attack an awkward coastal city that also has high defense and/or a lot of ranged defenders).

beetle said:
Assuming I caught your typo, this is fine point, and I did not understand that this is what you were arguing earlier.

How is that a typo? Units start at level 1 with 0/10 XP. Level 2 is first promotion. Level 3 is second promotion. Level 4 is third promotion (which is when you can get range).

beetle said:
I guess I just assumed that whatever you did to go from level 2 to level 3 can be used just as well to get you to level 4. If I have Brandenburg Gate or Autocracy buff, I would start ships with range rather than working hard to logistics.

Well, part of the "problem" (if we're assuming Frigates) is that city defense keeps going up as you use them and so they could start getting into the "one shot" territory as time goes on...which means getting Range to avoid that (rather than start losing Frigates) massively helps.

And yes, Bradenburg or Autocracy is a major factor here.

beetle said:
Absent a large fleet, a level 4 ship with logistics is much better than a level 4 ship with range.

I think we're semi miscommunicating due to you being mixed up on levels, but a level 4 ship can't have logistics yet -- has to be level 5, which is the whole crux of the issue.

beetle · May 27, 2015

LordBalkoth said:
How is that a typo? Units start at level 1 with 0/10 XP. Level 2 is first promotion. Level 3 is second promotion. Level 4 is third promotion (which is when you can get range).

You are correct. We are talking about the same unit capabilities though, as I was thinking Level == no. of promotions, but it is Level == promotions+1.

I think we're semi miscommunicating due to you being mixed up on levels, but a level 4 ship can't have logistics yet -- has to be level 5, which is the whole crux of the issue.

The point I was trying to make is that, absent issues with focus fire, ships with 3 terrain promotions and logistics are better than ships with 3 terrain promotions and range.

But upon reflection, I think your are correct, and for my next few games I am going to try range first rather than holding out for logistics.

Typically, getting from Level 3 to 4 is slow, because you have to heal. When I hold out for logistics, getting from Level 4 to 5 is slow too. A level 5 ship with logistics will get to range significantly faster than a Level 5 ship with range will get to logistics, but I don’t think that makes up for the extra slow period between Level 4 and 5.

Naval warfare on Deity

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