Mongolia completely overpowered?
- Thread starter lschnarch
- Start date
Well, I am looking at it from the perspective of a huge maps player.
It might get difficult to take them out early if they aren't located next to you. And even if they are, then you have to have the chance to take care of them, which is not guaranteed.
With their values it seems that only the weak AI makes it likely to survive a medevial war against them.
It might get difficult to take them out early if they aren't located next to you. And even if they are, then you have to have the chance to take care of them, which is not guaranteed.
With their values it seems that only the weak AI makes it likely to survive a medevial war against them.
You can't take cities with your Horseman or Knight??? I seem to recall that I and many here have done exactly that. I would think an uber-Knight would be even more greater than already overpowered
unit(s). But this goes along with a lot of other things, must give most of the players a fun, easy game.
GeneralMayhem
Chieftain
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2010
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- 53
mongol's are completely overpowered. I just played the mongol scenario on King. I took the Military Tradition policy which doubles already doubled xp promotions.
attacking walled cities is cake. move unit up, fire, and then move back (3 tiles from city) and get no damage whatsoever. the double xp w/ the military tradition doubles the rate at which i promote, and i save insta heals, and most of my units are so promoted it is laughable.
only drawback is that you need melee unit to capture cities (heard you could capture w/ archers, tried it with keshak and apparently can't).
made for another boring civ 5 experience.
attacking walled cities is cake. move unit up, fire, and then move back (3 tiles from city) and get no damage whatsoever. the double xp w/ the military tradition doubles the rate at which i promote, and i save insta heals, and most of my units are so promoted it is laughable.
only drawback is that you need melee unit to capture cities (heard you could capture w/ archers, tried it with keshak and apparently can't).
made for another boring civ 5 experience.
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
You can't capture cities with Keshik or any Archery-type unit. This is straight-forward throughout.
I suppose the fair comparison here is to the Camel Archer
Cost: 150 vs. 150, Strength: 10 vs. 8, Ranged Strength: 15 vs. 13, Range: 2 vs. 2, Movement: 3 vs. 5. Mongols also gain twice as much experience.
I think the added movement more than offsets the lost strength since it's still better than Crossbows, but at least it isn't entirely clear cut (you can at least point to a reason to prefer Camel Archers). Plus the Bazaar makes Arabs better peacetime players.
I suppose the fair comparison here is to the Camel Archer
Cost: 150 vs. 150, Strength: 10 vs. 8, Ranged Strength: 15 vs. 13, Range: 2 vs. 2, Movement: 3 vs. 5. Mongols also gain twice as much experience.
I think the added movement more than offsets the lost strength since it's still better than Crossbows, but at least it isn't entirely clear cut (you can at least point to a reason to prefer Camel Archers). Plus the Bazaar makes Arabs better peacetime players.
firecat318
Warlord
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- Sep 21, 2010
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- 170
Quite simple, just carry along an extra horseman along with your keshik horde to capture the cities. The horseman can move just as much as the Keshik and Kahn so your army won't get spread out.
oops, let me rephrase that.
If you already do the horseman rush, you will still go for horseman, attack your target, weaken it. By the time you get your keshik, game's probably over already.
If you don't attack your enemy early, sit back and build up & tech up to knight, you won't get keshik as quickly as say "horseman".
Some games are already over by the time mongol player/ai can get keshik out due to the power of horseman rush.
chaunceymo
Chieftain
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2005
- Messages
- 28
Mongols are NOT overpowered.
Why? Because combat is far and away the easiest part of the game. Are Keshik and Khans *cool*? Sure. Are they significantly more overpowered than knights? Maybe.
Doesn't change the fact that two knights, a swordsman and a trebuchet or two are more than sufficient to take out even the nastiest renaissance-era armies.
IMO the only civs that are really overpowered right now are ones that get significant economic advantages, since that's the only part of the game that's truly competitive with the AI. I think Arabia is OP, because they just make ICS even more broken with their bonus to trade route gold AND the bazaar gives you more luxury resources to sell. Civs with good cheap low-level buildings (China, Egypt) and gonzo economic UAs (Persia, Babylon, Siam) are the standouts imo.
I look at it this way: an overpowered military civ makes the game a tiny bit faster and possibly more fun. An overpowered economic civ might not make the game any more fun, but they can make it a LOT faster.
Why? Because combat is far and away the easiest part of the game. Are Keshik and Khans *cool*? Sure. Are they significantly more overpowered than knights? Maybe.
Doesn't change the fact that two knights, a swordsman and a trebuchet or two are more than sufficient to take out even the nastiest renaissance-era armies.
IMO the only civs that are really overpowered right now are ones that get significant economic advantages, since that's the only part of the game that's truly competitive with the AI. I think Arabia is OP, because they just make ICS even more broken with their bonus to trade route gold AND the bazaar gives you more luxury resources to sell. Civs with good cheap low-level buildings (China, Egypt) and gonzo economic UAs (Persia, Babylon, Siam) are the standouts imo.
I look at it this way: an overpowered military civ makes the game a tiny bit faster and possibly more fun. An overpowered economic civ might not make the game any more fun, but they can make it a LOT faster.
Dark_Jedi06
"Deus ex Machina."
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- Jul 19, 2006
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- 1,399
I've downloaded the Mongols yet they don't show up in-game at all...not even in the Civilopedia. 
GeneralMayhem
Chieftain
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2010
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- 53
yep capture cities with horsemen, just resist the urge to promote to keshik.
also, the Great General heal rate comes in handy.
also, anyone know if Mongol's have a high spawn rate of great generals??? I have 4 of them now and on turn 60 of 100 in the scenario. 1. Genghis, 2. Berke, 3. Hulegu, 4. Mongke
also, the Great General heal rate comes in handy.
also, anyone know if Mongol's have a high spawn rate of great generals??? I have 4 of them now and on turn 60 of 100 in the scenario. 1. Genghis, 2. Berke, 3. Hulegu, 4. Mongke
Yes, keshik are like companion calvry where it increase the rate of GG spawn.
carlisimo
Chieftain
That matches their history… they’d ride around, pepper you with arrows, and retreat faster than you could chase. It worked well.
But with that much movement (5??), I don’t know how I’m even going to get my pikemen into combat. I don’t want the game to be so realistic that the Mongols always win outside of jungles or typhoons. At that stage of the game you’ll need horsemen and hope they don’t always retreat their Keshiks far enough, or let them take your city hit points down to zero and desperately keep their unranged units from your cities. Yikes.
Even though their base attack is low in later eras, they’re going to remain hard to touch until artillery.
But with that much movement (5??), I don’t know how I’m even going to get my pikemen into combat. I don’t want the game to be so realistic that the Mongols always win outside of jungles or typhoons. At that stage of the game you’ll need horsemen and hope they don’t always retreat their Keshiks far enough, or let them take your city hit points down to zero and desperately keep their unranged units from your cities. Yikes.
Even though their base attack is low in later eras, they’re going to remain hard to touch until artillery.
argh, I think I need to revise my earlier opinion. keshik + mongols' unique GG is pretty bad news.
Build 2-3 keshik + 1 horseman + 1 GG, roam around at will, enemy can't do much since you can move so freaking much, don't need to slow down your horses for your poor GG because your GG moves just as fast. Injured? No problemo, just park your GG next to your small band of horsemen of acapolyse, they heal just fine.....
I don't think use pikeman are realistic, better counter to keshiks are probably knights in my opinion.
Build 2-3 keshik + 1 horseman + 1 GG, roam around at will, enemy can't do much since you can move so freaking much, don't need to slow down your horses for your poor GG because your GG moves just as fast. Injured? No problemo, just park your GG next to your small band of horsemen of acapolyse, they heal just fine.....
I don't think use pikeman are realistic, better counter to keshiks are probably knights in my opinion.
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
I've downloaded the Mongols yet they don't show up in-game at all...not even in the Civilopedia.
I had the same problem. I exited the game and tried again and they were there. Odd.
BTW, I'm thinking the best counter for Keshiks are certainly NOT Pikemen. Pikemen are sitting ducks. The best counter is actually Horsemen (not Knights, they're too slow, but Horsemen). Their 12 strength beats the Mongol's 8 strength and they're almost fast enough to catch up. Have a line of Pikes to absorb their blows and chase them down with Horsemen. I feel this is an effective enough counter, all things considered. Plus, it's fairly historically accurate (when dealing with horse archers, infantry is not the best counter).
Thoughtful Thug
Deity
A crossbowman with 5 movement points? I feel sorry for cities that have nothing but plains and grasslands surrounding it.
Just finished playing a 8 civ match while on King difficulty, and all I had to do was make 2 keshik and about 4 horseman. Too bad the AIs is still a pushover without having the mongols.
Just finished playing a 8 civ match while on King difficulty, and all I had to do was make 2 keshik and about 4 horseman. Too bad the AIs is still a pushover without having the mongols.
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
Crossbow with an extra cost and a resource requirement if you wish. That's why I was comparing it to Arabia. They're much more similar.
Well, the question is what is going to come next?
Any DLC now will be measured by units like the Keshik. Especially when you have to buy it, it has to "offer" something in return.
Seems like Civ0.V becoming more and more a fantasy spectacle, or some crazy Marvel comic with more and more and stronger "super heroes".
That's the way the franchise is going to take? Thanks for the beer and have a good night.
Any DLC now will be measured by units like the Keshik. Especially when you have to buy it, it has to "offer" something in return.
Seems like Civ0.V becoming more and more a fantasy spectacle, or some crazy Marvel comic with more and more and stronger "super heroes".
That's the way the franchise is going to take? Thanks for the beer and have a good night.
Louis XXIV
Le Roi Soleil
All Civs have to offer something, or else they're not worth playing.
It doesn't mean that they have to be the best at everything, but there has to be a reason to pick them. Mongolia offers fun with cavalry wars.
It doesn't mean that they have to be the best at everything, but there has to be a reason to pick them. Mongolia offers fun with cavalry wars.
Overreacting a bit there, I think.
The Mongolians are certainly powerful, but they're hardly broken.
And the Keshiks as represented in the game actually capture the historical essence of Keshiks, IMO, so that's pretty accurate. Powerful, but nowhere near a 'fantasy spectacle.'
They offer a distinct playstyle, which IMO is something all new civs should do.
