[Vote] (5-35) Buff Mongolia UU and UB

[Enginseer]

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VP Congress: Session 5, Proposal 35
Proposer: @Enginseer

Proposal:

	Current	Proposed	Differences	Rationale
UA	Mongol Terror Mounted Ranged Units benefit from Flanking when attacking and gain a +10% Flanking bonus. +100% Tribute Yields from City-State bullying.	The Secret History Mounted Ranged Units benefit from Flanking when attacking, gain a +10% Flanking bonus, and generate 50% more Great General Points from Combat (Free Companion Cavalry's Great General I Promotion). If (5-54) passes, Mounted Ranged Units start with the Envelopment Promotion, and generate 50% more Great General Points from Combat (Free Companion Cavalry's Great General I Promotion).	Title rename. Mounted Ranged Units generate 50% more (+1 more GGP off ranged attacks, +2 more GGP off them getting attacked).	UA's name should be more based on their culture. Their UA should offer a way to make more of their UU in addition to their UB.
Khan	Enhanced Medic Leadership Military Tradition (+2 Supply when Expended) Can construct an Ordo.	Enhanced Medic Leadership Military Tradition (+2 Supply when Expended) Can construct an Ordo. +2 Horses when Expended.	Expending Khan grants 2 Horses.	A khan in historic times was known for its vast horses. With many Khans come many horses. Let this transition into being able to field more mounted units like their buffed skirmishers or in later eras into a productive agribusiness.
Ger	+2 Border Growth Points +34% Border Growth +1 Faith 1 Gold Maintenance. +1 Food from Horses, Cattle, Sheep, Deer, and Bison. +1 Production from Camps. Gain 5 Food when this City expands its borders, scaling with Era. -25% Gold Cost Plot Purchase Reduction.	+2 Border Growth Points +34% Border Growth +1 Faith 1 Gold Maintenance. +1 Food from Horses, Cattle, Sheep, Deer, and Bison. +1 Production from Camps. Gain 5 Food when this City expands its borders, scaling with Era. Gain 50 Great General Points when constructed.	Removed Gold Cost Plot Purchase Reduction. Gain 50 Great General Points when constructed.	Why is Mongolia getting something that America UA gets for free and gets rewarded for purchasing tiles? Mongolia doesn't get Food off purchased tiles here. I want to make Ger more Mongolia-like. They get closer to a Khan as they expand and build more Gers. Even in peaceful times, Great Khans were made.
Mounted Ranged (Skirmisher) Unit Combat Line	They're referred to as Mounted Ranged. One Unit is named Skirmisher.	Change all terms of Mounted Ranged to Skirmisher. The unit named Skirmisher is to be named Light Skirmisher.	Text change.	I think it's fitting in Mongolia's proposal for them to define what a Skirmisher really is since they don't have a Skirmisher UU in the first place! Change the UA Text and other mentions of these so-called Mounted Ranged into Skirmishers since Light Tanks and Helicopters definitely aren't Mounted Ranged yet have their "Skirmisher Doctrine" Promotion and performs similar roles.

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VP Congress: Session 5, Proposal 35a
Proposer: @pineappledan
Discussion Thread: (5-38a) Counterproposal: Mongol UA and UB Buff

Current situation
Mongolia's UA - Mongol Terror:
Mounted Ranged Units benefit from Flanking when attacking and gain a +10% Flanking bonus. +100% Tribute Yields from City-State bullying.

Mongol UB - Ger (unique lodge)
unique bonuses underlined
+2 BGP, +1 Faith
+1 to Deer, Bison, horses, cattle, and sheep
+1to Camps
5 food when your borders expand naturally
-25% plot gold purchase cost and +34% border growth modifier

There have been many changes that have affected Mongolia in the recent past:

Spoiler :

• Skirmisher rework:
  • changed Skirmishers into high movement, low damage units with flanking support role
  • Mongols changed from giving all skirmishers '+2 movement and ZOC' to '+10% flanking and benefit from flanking'
• Khan changes:
  • replaced ability to plant citadels with new Ordo unique improvement which has less tile defense, but adds movement to units that pass through it
  • gave all khans 10 damage to adjacent enemy units, to go with their enhanced healing of adjacent friendly units
• Tribute reworks
  • Adjustments to CS intimidation calculations greatly reduced overall tribute yields, which affects Mongols 2x more than other civs
• Granary/Lodge/Herbalist split:
  • The Ger UB used to be a unique Granary.
  • Before the Lodge was added, the Granary was a stronger base building which gave more base bonuses more efficiently than the new Lodge
• a proposal changed all other border growth bonuses in the game from plot cost reductions to BGP modifiers.
  • This was done because multiple plot cost reductions stack exponentially, and they could combine to greatly increase border expansion. The total number of plot cost reductions also exceeded -100%, so it was possible to bottom-out the bonuses at an artificial minimum of -80% reductions.
  • This change to BGP modifiers was a very major nerf to Mongolia's tile claim abilities.

Spoiler Here is a summary of all the sources of tile claim bonuses in the game and what they do :

Spoiler Here is the math breakdown comparing Mongolia's old tile claim rate vs now :

Note: it is safe to assume that all Mongol cities will have monuments. Therefore, it makes the most sense to focus on the combined power of the UB and a Monument as a starting point.

The tile claim bonus is now 2/3rds as strong when combined with a monument, 1/3rd as strong as it was with Monument and GoE, and roughly 3/8ths as strong as it used to be with all bonuses combined.

Proposal:
UA: Mongol Terror
Mounted Ranged units have +1 Attack. 20% of Yields from City-State bullying is converted to All Yields ( )

• no longer benefit from flanking or have flanking bonus
• +100% of tribute yields replaced with yield conversion, like old version of tribute policy

UB: Ger (unique Lodge)
unique bonuses underlined. New parts Bolded in Red
+2 BGP, +1 Faith
+1 to Deer, Bison, horses, cattle, and sheep
+1to Camps and Pastures
5 food and Production when your borders expand naturally
-25% plot gold purchase cost and +50% border growth modifier

Reasoning:
Skirmisher bonus change:

• The Mongol UA needs to convert a ranged support unit into a mainline damage dealer. The current bonus is not sufficient for the task
• +1 attack makes skirmishers capable of more direct damage, but is not unfair because of the skirmisher line's low base RCS
• The bonus is more straightforward, easier to use
• Double attacks means more XP from combat, which means more Khans. The Mongols do not currently have an ability that assists them in generating GGeneral points faster, and +1 attack can do that
• The +1 attack can stack with logistics for 3 attacks on a unit, but this is not recommended. 3 attacks as -30% RCS is barely any more damage than 2 full strength attacks, but costs more moves.
• The flanking bonus can move to be a pickable promotion. The skirmisher line has a shortage of those. see Proposal 5-54

Tribute bonus change

• The current +100% yield bonus is almost identical to the Zulu's +50% intimidation bonus. The end result is more yields from tribute, which makes them functionally indistinguishable
• If Stalker0's Tribute rework goes through, the only yield that base tribute will give is gold. Heavy tribute would be quest rewards, and not interact with tribute bonuses, meaning that the Mongol bonus will only ever give gold, unless paired with some policy augmentation
• Meanwhile the Zulu's bonus will still make heavy tribute easier, so it still retains utility outside of raw gold. This makes the Mongol version of the bonus less flexible and interesting, so it is the Mongol UA that should change.

Ger Changes:

• just more and stronger yields.
• The Ger is weak, and increasing the numbers it gives is sufficient.
• changing the horse/cattle/sheep bonus to a pasture improvement bonus is cleaner, less text, and still fits the theme well.

 

[pineappledan]

You've got 2 separate proposals to add GGeneral point sources onto civs (Mongols and Denmark). You really want to make more civs give that as a reward? Also you cite how the current bonus makes mongols too similar to America, but your fix is to make them even more similar to Russia. This doesn’t look like progress.

I would prefer to hold off on any Mongolia changes until after the Tribute stuff is reworked. Feels like there will be too many moving parts to assess whether the changes were good or not.

 

[Enginseer]

Amended to remove +3 GGP when your border expands with a Ger since that can create an opportunity loss. Added a source for them to generate their Khans via Combat like their historical aspect allowed them to do so. Now they have two ways of building a Khan by building multiple Gers and fighting with their UA-buffed units.

 

[Rekk]

Amended to remove +3 GGP when your border expands with a Ger since that can create an opportunity loss

What opportunity loss?

 

[Enginseer]

What opportunity loss?

In my proposal, I suggested that Ger should grant +3 Great General Point when their border expands, this would be an opportunity loss since you would want to maximize the amount of yields received from expanding borders by building it early which might not be exactly the best building in many cases given its generalist bonuses.

 

[Rekk]

...so it sounds like you don't want Mongolia players to have to make a choice?

It's a unique building. You should want players to prioritize building it.

 

[Anarcomu]

You want it to be build quickly anyway as Authority, since it both gives food on expanding borders, and add +2 BGP (in addition to give +34% BGP)

 

[Enginseer]

...so it sounds like you don't want Mongolia players to have to make a choice?

It's a unique building. You should want players to prioritize building it.

I don't want Mongolia players to miss out on a few yields of border expansion, since the earliest turns are where border expansions happen more often than others so it remains unchanged in my proposal. Moving another source of additional Great General Points to its UA instead. It didn't have Great General Points at its beginning anyway?

You want it to be build quickly anyway as Authority, since it both gives food on expanding borders, and add +2 BGP (in addition to give +34% BGP)

Correct, you can still build the Ger if you wanted. I only amended the part where I suggested 3 Great General Points on border expansion.

On other news, I sponsor this.