Cities in Development (Obsolete)

Recently I thought about crime related already existing world wonder and how to make ballanced edition. Let's see what is the weakest existing wonder there? Ankgor Wat easily. Adding crime redusing feature to it would make Ankgor really usefull.

Okay, I can't enact the request the services of a great person decision, and I'm not getting loyalty.

I would send you logs, but I'm beginning to think that this is somehow related to piety(the decisions not working).

Making an economical overhaul for realistic reasons would probably mean nullifying the direct influence the player has on this aspect in his empire. I mean, you could influence it by choosing your culture or by absolutist decrees, but the real actor should lie with your citizens. Trade units that spawn themselves, trade posts that pop up along side trade routes and interaction from the large cities with its hinterland and neighbors. The most money is made by self sufficient citizens, buying luxuries should be nothing more than elitist trade, only important for the common populous when they can afford it and it is done in large bulk.

Food trade would be an important factor for making money but also one that can impede you. Money is also made by plain building resources, which accounts for a less shaky economy then when you focus entirely on luxuries. Luxuries would also include next to the natural ones like stone (or wood!) manufactured goods, only available to create by a fair few. There would be nations that specialize in trafficking both products and nations that create them, either because they have lots of resources or because of their (high) culture. Introducing goods would mean a lot of extra icons, and include next to stuff like porcelain and carpets stuff like special breeds of animals. The AI right now at least knows the value of luxuries based on their availability if I'm correct, which means copying the method of manufacture decreases their value. Factories and spies would probably play a role here.

I think currency is a tinier factor but it could be fun, it would probably as been said work as a religion (or cultural influence). I like the idea of making luxuries important for this, like a nation that has lots of spices (but not too many, which would lower its value, forcing you to adopt a luxury that is less common) in its empire uses this as a currency and has lots of trade influence, it would make spices the norm as a currency. Gold coins in game would present spices since they are nothing more then a symbol. However you can no longer simply sell or buy this resource as it would have to be preserved for creation of your currency. A strong trade influence would mean people have to adopt your currency which could impede their economy when they do not own that resource, giving you an extra tactical choice. On top of that if they do not manufacture anything themselves or did not focus on trafficking they have an even weaker economy since they would be consuming more then they make with money that doesn't originates from their own empire. It would make less sense focusing solely on precious metals as a currency because their source never exhaust in-game, making it as viable as any other luxury. You could also have trade based on lower ranked resources like iron or like I said food (cattle/horses/wheat) maybe introduce new ones like wood and other kinds of furs. They would all influence production or food in an empire, like inland traderoutes, so if the stream stops you have to account for it.

The accusation of these important resources would probably happen by itself, via trade units spawned that target the largest producer, of course with your approval. I am however not sure how far this automation should go since it could impede you (as I said you have to account for a sudden stop of the stream of resources) and it could cost you a lot of money while you yourself might not have a sufficient income based on your resources. I think it should be a decree, like you allow the capital to be fed, but all the other cities have to be self sufficient.

Corporations could make a re-entering in Civ. Small businesses (like fishing/herding/cultivation) could influence Great Merchant generation, and instead of creating customs houses (which should be something the player creates since it has governmental functions) they create these Corporations. These would probably be tied to an existing resource in your empire, or the specialization of a manufactured good that you can sell that gets automatically bought by foreign trade routes.

Science would probably also account for money (it helps with specialization of the manufactured goods you sell, along with a high culture output and GM's) while on the same time be costly, this would mean a more organic accusation of science with sudden influxes initiated by you (funding). Civs that start close by each other, lots of trade routes to different civilizations and many wars (Europe on YnaEmp) would be factors with a large influence on your science output, ultimately making more populated regions (by cililizations) more advanced then secluded regions (America in YnaEmp, well unless you spawn more civs there), which used to be the whole point of Culdiv. if I remember correctly. This system would mean an objective distinction of scientifically superiority between civilizations solely based on their locations.

Finally personal projects (like erecting wonders, or increasing your culture) would be handled by the old trade screen between leaders, allowing you to acquire the resources you need. Kind of like what the pharaoh's did.

I don't know where luxuries as a whole fit in this situation, but logically they'd be structured between those that can be reproduced (wine etc.) and those that are simply found (marble e.o.). Looking back at my previous statement about currency based on luxuries, it would mean that spices won't be a good base for a currency and stuff like precious metal would. This however would let you a little less freedom in choosing your currency and seems less fun and impeding. It also would mean you should be actually able to reproduce some of those luxuries, which is something you cant see in game unless you reload. It would also mean you'd have to think a lot about re balancing the yields.

Or like, just make currency the new religion

^Better thoughts

Natan35 said:

Okay, I can't enact the request the services of a great person decision, and I'm not getting loyalty.

I would send you logs, but I'm beginning to think that this is somehow related to piety(the decisions not working).

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1) A known issue, fixed in the next version.
2) Are you not using Colonies? This would explain it. Has been fixed, if so.

OrderofOlav said:

snip

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Sounds like we need a new game I dunno, maybe I'll come up with something vis-a-vi currencies one day. It'd need to be simple enough to add onto the existing game, as anything otherwise would need to overhaul the economic systems, and that'd be not only perhaps be impossible, but also too much work. Whatever it is, it'd need to coincide with the existance of GPT, as that's not something that can be changed.

Ragamuffin said:

From what I've seen, they totally do use claims and it's infuriating.
They all seem to have been weak though.

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On the AI pushing Claims, is it that you find it happening too often? I can tweak how it works if so, and if anyone finds it happening too often, please do comment.

CCC update to v4:

• Corrected erroneous clause in Mission Colonies, which stated that the units only became available in the Industrial Era (they're available straight away, provided you have the tech for the Colonist).
• Fixed an issue wherein the free Missionary from Mission Colonies could not be used to spread your Religion.
• Merged CBP EUI Tooltip changes.
• Thanks to Gazebo, expending Great Dignitaries and Great Magistrates will now register as expending a Great Person.
• Fixed TXT_KEY errors when expending a Great Admiral for a luxury.
• Fixed an issue wherein the 'Request GP,' 'Universities Council,' and 'Utilities' decisions could not be enacted.
• Fixed an issue wherein the cost of the 'Political Forum' decision would increase every time the Decisions panel was opened.
• Re-scaled the large City View UI with EUI to properly fit added Crimes, Loyalty, and Happiness values.
• Corrected an issue wherein the small-scale UI was being used for the City View regardless of UI needs.
• Fixed an issue wherein the Freedom exclusive Decision stated that it required Autocracy to enact.
• National Treasury no longer yields +4 Gold. This has been moved to the East India Company.
• Fixed an issue wherein disabling the Colonies component would cause the game to incorrectly register cities as Colonies.
• Fixed an issue wherein disabling Colonies but not Loyalty would cause the Floating Gardens to appear in a city (Loyalty may now be used in spite of disabling Colonies).
• Without EE, Supreme Court moved to Architecture.

Next update will hopefully include Crimes, which I'll aim to release by the end of the month. Will also include the Dutch UA - I just wanted to fix some serious bugs with the Decisions asap for v4.

On Currency, I do have a working idea, which would introduce a new 'Prosperity' value, which would work similarly to Sovereignty, and would interact with Happiness and the cost of purchasing items with Gold, and would be weighted according to the strength of your Currency vis-a-vi other players' Currencies. But I need to determine with Gazebo whether it's doable before I can develop it further and discuss it. Combined with Sov. and Crimes, I think this will put a check on the extra Gold that Crimes will potentially allow players to accumulate. It will also push up the value of Mercenaries in a way I wanted to accomplish by disabling gold purchasing (which is an option in Mercs., but too extreme for my tastes). I would also be adding my own Emigration system therein and I will try to factor in a return of Trade. If Slavery is to be anywhere, it will probably be here, too. This may delay Sovereignty a little, fair warning.

Also, does anyone have any ideas how I might add in Fort Colonies? I originally had Forts and Citadels that were constructed outside your borders turn into them, but I worry this would never be used.

And does anyone have any thoughts vis-a-vi CCC and the CBP? Balance concerns? Bugs?

Ragamuffin said:

I actually wrote up a Currency Mod idea I had ages ago, I have no idea how much of it would be workable. I haven't a clue where it is now, but the gist was that after a National Bank or Mint was constructed, you would choose a money sign, like a pound or euro or dollar, and the choice of an effect, like X amount of science for every 100 gold in your reserves, or something similar. Then you could grow your currency by the amount of luxury resources you had access to, allow other civs to adopt your currency...

Now that I look at it, it seems like how religion works, but with money.

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I also had this idea before. Because in Civ 5 we lack a trade domination victory, which is a shame because most of the game interacts with money.

Instead of a "Language" system, I think of a "Demography" system which works very much like the spread of religion but the population flow is subjected to emigration, war casualties and tourism. Civs controlling cities populated with their own people will have a nice boost in yields, and vice versa. With this system in place, we can perhaps see the AI manage city trading a bit smarter.

E.g.
Say Moscow with 80% Russian should produce better yields than the annexed city Warsaw with 50% Polish.

Emigration itself can spin off to many interesting features. For instance, razing cities produce refugees that will settle in nearby cities with high happiness. Mixed demography will produce many crime and unhappiness problems. They may even spawn rebels more frequently, which can be interpreted as a civil war.

Going fascist synergizes with demographic purity
Going freedom synergizes with mixed demography
Going order let the player have some degree of control in emigration like the resettlement.

Fort colonies? How about that:

Workers may construct forts anywhere outside your territory. Doing so will take time based on the distance from your border. If founded within colony range they will claim the tile they're built on and will function as a 1 tile zero pop city. Those colonies may only grow and expand when garrisoned. They may not produce anything, but they retain the other city functions in addition to dealing damage to adjacent enemies.

I would drop forts and citadels outside of my territory in a heartbeat if that was possible the fact they also turn into cities is probably enough to send people over the edge to do so as well. Forts outside your borders sound way more beneficial then in your borders where they take those precious potential yields hostage. You could overlook a larger area (less pesky barbarians!) and if they claim the tile they are on forts would allow you to upgrade your sentries there as well.

Or you could just have a special unit, like a military engineer. You'd have to produce him first so that counters the spammebility of forts. But I guess you already counted in extra cost and slower buildup of forts in neutral land. There is already a mod that allows to build forts in neutral land and it seems kind of stable.

Either way you could end up with another fort in your fort colony when they are built too close, it could be fun if forts in fort colony borders had special yields!


Oh culture could play a role in both prosperity and currency! Tradition would mean you are self sufficient -> your currency won't succumb as fast under stronger foreign ones. Honor would mean you'd have a military economy, war does not interfere with your prosperity. And Liberty means less downsides from having multiple currencies in your empire (if currency works like that), or an extra bonus to help you get a stronger currency in a far flung empire. Etc.

Spitballing:
Prosperity would probably be influenced with how many active wars you wage, production & food output of your empire (referring to surplus and the sale of that), trade routes that pass your border, the amount of AI allies you have and like you said happiness. Also maybe the size of your standing army and the amount of 'veterans'. Oh also, there is this theory that the Renaissance was kick-started by the black death that killed off so many people in parts of Europe. The survivors could demand better payment or they could suddenly get rich by stealing all the loose money from dead people lying around. That would probably mean sudden influxes of prosperity when you loose citizens, but that bonus lowers over time and should let you account for the the lowered production and food output that also influences prosperity. Oh and employment of course.

Currency I guess is sort of an influence on the outside world, its strength could be based on the amount of luxuries in your empire, but I think basic high food and production yields should not be overlooked. The Dutch for instance are looked upon as prosperous in the past because of our connections with the luxury trade from the East, but our biggest income probably came from trading Baltic grain. Currency strength would also be based on economical buildings in your empire I guess, and the mint (which seems a bit unfair). You'd probably influence other people with close by cities and how many trade routes you send to their empire, so just like religion actually.

Both seem to tie in to food and production output actually...since they could both symbolize citizens holdings and the trade of surplus to outsiders which influences ones currency.

The environment could probably play a role, like coast and rivers. Roads could be a huge deal, with would make AI behavior more understandable (settling their cities on your neutral roads! Argh ). Ohohoh and island cities could be way more prosperous!


Btw I was thinking about your remark about the fact that sadly you can't build trade units solely for inland uses. But you could create a resupply unit, one that you'd have to manually send back and forth between your core cities and colonies, where they'd drop either food or allow for cheaper purchases. It sounds like a lot of extra micromanagement so perhaps the unit could be really expensive but also really effective (being faster then normal units and maybe gifting more then regular inland traderoutes), maybe also with a counter for how many you can create. Or the unit might have to rest in a core city to resupply for a good amount of turns, changing per game speed.

And here I was thinking that we were reaching an era where all JFD mods might be released and finished. How wrong I was.

I would second with Olav, a military engineer would make sense. One that can't be purchased and is a one time use. Using normal workers might get too spammy, but that remains to be seen.

At least if Gazebo says it's not doable, we'll get Sovereignty earlier.

But like I said, there already exist a mod that allows you to build forts in neutral territory and it seems pretty stable. It takes extra gold, longer construction and if you do not garrison it with a unit it will become a neutral tile, flipping to anyone that moves their unit into it. I have used it before and I did not see huge spamming projects done by the AI. I worry that a specialized civilian unit would actually increase spamming by the AI

Could that military engineer also be popped in a city that has taken damage and heal the city for a certain amount? It would be shoring up the defenses as the city is under siege.

Galaphile0125 said:

Could that military engineer also be popped in a city that has taken damage and heal the city for a certain amount? It would be shoring up the defenses as the city is under siege.

Click to expand...

If indeed I do add a military engineer, then sure.

OrderofOlav said:

But like I said, there already exist a mod that allows you to build forts in neutral territory and it seems pretty stable. It takes extra gold, longer construction and if you do not garrison it with a unit it will become a neutral tile, flipping to anyone that moves their unit into it. I have used it before and I did not see huge spamming projects done by the AI. I worry that a specialized civilian unit would actually increase spamming by the AI

Click to expand...

Kesler said:

At least if Gazebo says it's not doable, we'll get Sovereignty earlier.

Click to expand...

You might be excited for Sov., but I'm keen to get working as many concepts which fit systems in their own right as possible, so that Sov. can interact with them via Reforms. So you'll just have to wait But I have to develop TP (I might switch it to PT...), so in the meantime I'll be carrying on with Sov.

OrderofOlav said:

I would drop forts and citadels outside of my territory in a heartbeat if that was possible the fact they also turn into cities is probably enough to send people over the edge to do so as well. Forts outside your borders sound way more beneficial then in your borders where they take those precious potential yields hostage. You could overlook a larger area (less pesky barbarians!) and if they claim the tile they are on forts would allow you to upgrade your sentries there as well.

Or you could just have a special unit, like a military engineer. You'd have to produce him first so that counters the spammebility of forts. But I guess you already counted in extra cost and slower buildup of forts in neutral land. There is already a mod that allows to build forts in neutral land and it seems kind of stable.

Either way you could end up with another fort in your fort colony when they are built too close, it could be fun if forts in fort colony borders had special yields!


Oh culture could play a role in both prosperity and currency! Tradition would mean you are self sufficient -> your currency won't succumb as fast under stronger foreign ones. Honor would mean you'd have a military economy, war does not interfere with your prosperity. And Liberty means less downsides from having multiple currencies in your empire (if currency works like that), or an extra bonus to help you get a stronger currency in a far flung empire. Etc.

Spitballing:
Prosperity would probably be influenced with how many active wars you wage, production & food output of your empire (referring to surplus and the sale of that), trade routes that pass your border, the amount of AI allies you have and like you said happiness. Also maybe the size of your standing army and the amount of 'veterans'. Oh also, there is this theory that the Renaissance was kick-started by the black death that killed off so many people in parts of Europe. The survivors could demand better payment or they could suddenly get rich by stealing all the loose money from dead people lying around. That would probably mean sudden influxes of prosperity when you loose citizens, but that bonus lowers over time and should let you account for the the lowered production and food output that also influences prosperity. Oh and employment of course.

Currency I guess is sort of an influence on the outside world, its strength could be based on the amount of luxuries in your empire, but I think basic high food and production yields should not be overlooked. The Dutch for instance are looked upon as prosperous in the past because of our connections with the luxury trade from the East, but our biggest income probably came from trading Baltic grain. Currency strength would also be based on economical buildings in your empire I guess, and the mint (which seems a bit unfair). You'd probably influence other people with close by cities and how many trade routes you send to their empire, so just like religion actually.

Both seem to tie in to food and production output actually...since they could both symbolize citizens holdings and the trade of surplus to outsiders which influences ones currency.

The environment could probably play a role, like coast and rivers. Roads could be a huge deal, with would make AI behavior more understandable (settling their cities on your neutral roads! Argh ). Ohohoh and island cities could be way more prosperous!


Btw I was thinking about your remark about the fact that sadly you can't build trade units solely for inland uses. But you could create a resupply unit, one that you'd have to manually send back and forth between your core cities and colonies, where they'd drop either food or allow for cheaper purchases. It sounds like a lot of extra micromanagement so perhaps the unit could be really expensive but also really effective (being faster then normal units and maybe gifting more then regular inland traderoutes), maybe also with a counter for how many you can create. Or the unit might have to rest in a core city to resupply for a good amount of turns, changing per game speed.

Click to expand...

Ah! Well, I was just concerned it would be overlooked if it was a Worker and outside borders action. But I'll reconsider. Thanks.

On Prosperity: It won't be so complex as to have multiple Currencies in one civ (one Currency per civ). Overall, the system may not be as complex as to accomodate all your ideas - when considering Sovereignty, Piety, Loyalty, Crime, things start to get a bit hectic, and I like to view Prosperity as the check to Gold (as Piety is to Faith, Tourism to Culture, Happiness to Golden Ages, Crime is to everything, etc.). Atm Prosperity is just based upon your percentage of the world GPT, with additional modifiers such as Currency and Reforms on top. I'll keep in mind the effect of Food or Production output, but I hadn't had it in mind to play a role. War affecting Prosperity would be good though. Appreciate the ideas!

It goes without saying, but Trade of course may not happen - I will factor it in and try to work with a new idea for it, but the old system really doesn't work for me (code-wise and conceptually).

Did you see my idea?

It seems that the latest version of CCC is causing TXT_KEY errors with Hatshepsut for me - on the bright side it seems to have fixed the other issues I was having with the mod.

Thanks for the update!

Also getting the Hatshepsut error, and now my magistrates won't disappear with use. It's like that infernal cookie clicking game but with magistrates. I'll update and see if the same goes for Dignitaries.

Update: Same with Dignitary. Seems like now is the time to get those logs together...

Is it mod support text (e.g. Decisions) for Hatshepsut? Or her standard text? I'll check it out.

Natan35 said:

Did you see my idea?

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Too complicated, Natan. All I'm looking for is a means of creating them, not necessarily a different functioning. But if Forts and Citadels outside your borders will get use, I'll make it this.

JFD said:

Is it mod support text (e.g. Decisions) for Hatshepsut? Or her standard text? I'll check it out.

Click to expand...

It seems to be creating TXT_KEY errors within her Civlopedia and that of the Merchant Barge - haven't had a chance to get a game with her to check decisions yet.

Ok, sorry about that - dunno why I didn't think of it, but it was a conflict between Crime's updated Burial Tomb text (not in effect, but still there) and Hatshepsut's. I'll of course have Hathsepsut updated proper for Crimes before its release. Here's the update. Also fixed an issue where the Code of Laws decision said it required Writing when it requires Code of Laws with Code of Laws. Code of Laws. Magistrates properly expended though.

Thanks for the swift fix

In regards to the splitting of the Great Person counters, it seems like one of the Scientific great people is still increasing the counter of at least the Magistrate (though not other Engineers, Scientists or Merchants) this makes maintaining Magistrates very difficult, as you end up getting far more of the other great people.

I'll edit this post if I can narrow it down to which specific great person, though I'm assuming it's the merchant.

EDIT; Welp, looks like it was the Great Engineer that is causing the problem