The Vault Dev. Canteen (General Discussion)

Ah I understand, you were trying to slow down your research rate.

What sort of times were you seeing for buildings and techs, just roughly?

How much faster was your techs to buildings ratio?

5 turns to 30 turns? 10 to 50?

I presume you would call for shorter builds rather than longer techs.

I think my build times were too long this time arond, because of the kcock on effect of each one being longer and it slowing down the ovrall yield rate, etc.

What I need to figure out now is by how much they are overpriced so I can adjust all buildings accordingly.

what about say halving the price of everything? What sort of build times were you seeing from era to era and such?

http://www.filedropper.com/a5p1l01


Here is a half-finished playable version of a faster branch.

Back up your FTTW folder.
Put the contents of A5P1L0.1 into your test FTTW folder.
(Copy or move -> merge -> replace.)
Play a Village (non-Vault) civ; Vault civs will become stunted.


What I have done so far:

Reduced tech costs (so far only through Medieval)
[Classical era in Vanilla L is 8960 research points; in FTTW was 119396]
Moved the fifth tier of Ancient techs into Classical and split Classical into
Classical and Medieval - 3 tiers each (tag-changing, not real moving)
(There were no Medieval techs between Classical and Renaissance.)
***Technologies\CIV4TechInfos.xml

Set Garden to have +2 Food, +3 at Gardening (from +4, +1 @CropRot)
***Terrain\CIV4ImprovementInfos.xml

Moved Garden from Gardening to Gathering, (alg. ~doubled price)
Reduced build costs for early roads and producing improvements
***Units\CIV4BuildInfos.xml

Reduced build costs for buildings (so far only Village, only thru Medieval)
Added 1 coin each to Foraging Hut, Snare Traps, Gathering Hut
Changed Library to gain 20 research from Books, not 200
Changed Caravan Market (Tech) to gain 10 Safety from Pre-War Tech, not 101
***Buildings\CIV4BuildingInfos.xml

Changed Wealth builds from 10-50% to 20/40/60/80/100
***GameInfo\Civ4ProcessInfo.xml

Changed all TXT_KEY_PROCESS_GOLD to TXT_KEY_PROCESS_WEALTH
Changed some wealth descriptions from explore to scavenge
Changed some buttons to ProcessResearch for science
Changed some buttons to ProcessCulture for safety
***Text\Fallout-TTW_Process_CIV4GameText.xml


What I have left to do:
Village buildings: Renaissance era on
Vault buildings: all eras
adjust the improvements and buildings that don't fit my algorithms
look at later techs
polish & tinker/get feedback/tinker & polish
do something else

I hope this ends up close to what you wanted, Lib.
It's still slower than vanilla, but I'm playing a large map and tech on a large map is 40% more, so... It's not wildly out. I like it.
One crash. No problem on reload.
One dead civ. I suspect it never settled.

Hey lark, sounds interesting, will take me a while to wrap my head around it.

I have added those little cosmetic fixes to my patch folder, well done for spotting.

Have you seen my gamespeed thread?

I have added a new gamespeed file there, to test out quick speed adjustments, that seem to currently net someting like a 300-350 turn game.

Would you be willing to have a go at it and tell me how it 'feels' as I don't reallly have any knowledge about fast games, but if this is good or close to good, it would benefit from your knowledge and thinking I believe, and would also help us to set the marker for a 500ish turn normal game as well.

You can see some of my observations on it in that thread.

Gamespeed thread.

If I can get you your 'more sensible start' with almost exclusively the game speed setting, then that will reduce/remove the need for drastic changes across the board, as we can make those drastic changes with one file and a few numbers!

Now that I know just how short a game is for some players, I have started to put some more energy into 'quick gaming' but I really need some human players to see if you massively overwhelm the AI.

The AI still has some problems, particularly with expansion that I am trying to get to the bottom of.

I am fairly certain expansion thinking is one of the big failures of AI power right now, I am sure one problem is stack strength of settlers, because I constantly watch them make a move towards a new site but then get scared off, and then just run around in circles.

Another might be finance balancing, in that the AI (or maybe everyone now) does not have income to support more than X cities at a given time frame. We may need to look more closely at improving that.

Another thing I need to figure out is if the AI knows it can use dirigibles in the later game to settle far off locations, I don't know how the AI processes 'settler identity' and if it needs something done to understand that there are new settlers it can have.

Can you give me a bit more info on this, I am having trouble working out your figures and where they come from?
Changed Library to gain 20 research from Books, not 200
Changed Caravan Market (Tech) to gain 10 Safety from Pre-War Tech, not 101

Did I make a typo somewhere?!?

I ask you... what has the world come to when New Reno Sherrifs are sent out to kill NCR Slavers and Theives?

I just got the last two achievements for fallout new vegas. I had to kill so many non hostile robots. I feel dead inside.

you betrayed your own kind for an achievement.....I don't even recognise you anymore..

Does anyone know of a way to keep this site from eating posts?

I am reminded of people who write about "freedom fighters". I always wonder, for or against? It always turns out to be for ...nominally. But it also always turns out that neither the people who approve of freedom fighters nor the freedom fighters themselves really like it very much. It's just an excuse to fight, for both of them, and the instant they gain any power they're even more against it than the people they were fighting.

So with the eponymous "civ fanatics", for or against? I write a post offline, then have to log in to post it. I need to put a link in (or even a smiley), I have to log in again. I spend half an hour adding a reply at the end to something upthread (I have trouble being clear if I don't think and type carefully) and the site makes me log in a third time. And eats my post. Again. The last time it happened I went away and played other things for a few months so I wouldn't be reminded about dealing with this site. This time I guess I'm just ranting about it. Oh well, maybe Civ6 will have Steam forums. If we're lucky and it's playable.

Ha! This time it only made me log in twice! And didn't eat it! I win!
I'm going to put in a smiley so I'll have three times. That's odd, it didn't make me log in again. Though it did eat the last paragraph. ...which I'd saved!

Here is a rough playable version of a faster branch.
The goal is to play at Normal pace when Normal game speed is selected.

Back up your FTTW folder.
Put the contents of A5P1L0.2 into your test FTTW folder.
(Copy or move -> merge -> replace.)
Play.

What I have done so far:

The earlier coins, Wealth and Garden is to speed up the early game (which is still slow). The cheaper SM Unarmed is to keep the Mutants from building pointless 2500 units. They'll never feel safe enough to expand if they fall ever further behind. There are minor bug fixes.
Everything else is pacing increases.

I may have broken Slavery. In my test, I researched Mass Religion - which obsoletes Slavers HQ - before I could settle enough cities to build the HQ in the first place, and before the first enslavable barbarian units appeared.
OTOH, the same thing happened in my games before I made any changes.


What I have left to do:

Can you give me a bit more info on this, I am having trouble working out your figures and where they come from?
Changed Library to gain 20 research from Books, not 200
Changed Caravan Market (Tech) to gain 10 Safety from Pre-War Tech, not 101

Did I make a typo somewhere?!?

Click to expand...

I hope they were typos and not intentional.
As I said, the numbers were in CIV4BuildingInfos.xml. Specifically, they're in the BonusCommerceChanges section of the buildings. Just look at the buildings in the 'Pedia or mouse over them anywhere else in a game with your original files to verify the original numbers.

I am fairly certain expansion thinking is one of the big failures of AI power right now, I am sure one problem is stack strength of settlers, because I constantly watch them make a move towards a new site but then get scared off, and then just run around in circles.

Another might be finance balancing, in that the AI (or maybe everyone now) does not have income to support more than X cities at a given time frame. We may need to look more closely at improving that.

Click to expand...

I have addressed that partially. The small changes with coins, Wealth and the Garden made a larger financial impact than I would have thought. Also, in my one game with pass two I had freakishly less inflation -- I don't know why.

My speed changes don't apply to the barbarians, so AI civs need only fear the bugs and Deathclaws in early expansion and can expect to overmatch the raiding barbs when they finally show up. I think they're still scared of each other, though; they don't like to settle near another civ's capital but everywhere is near when they start jammed together. Humans are certainly more expansionist.
Oh, and this pass makes the resource buildings cheaper, so civs can make better units sooner instead of only if they're lucky.


Thanks for the link to your gamespeed thread. I will look at that tonight or tomorrow.

Also, if I didn't misunderstand, you mentioned being able to run an AI-only game. It sounds useful if you could see what everybody was building and where they were moving. Could you post a link that tells how to do it?

You can only see your own faction in AI play, you just specifiy how many turns you want it to run for, but you can't do anything while it runs, you can only see the bit of the map that you are looking at when you start running it.

I am having trouble finding where you activate it.

I think you have to add thecheat code CHIPOSTLE to one of the .ini type files, but I cannot find it. It may work anyway.. I don't know..

You need to press ctrl+shift+x in game and you get a popup window where you enter how many turns to run for.

I have never experienced the post eating problem... at least I don't think I have.

Yeah try out a quick game, with my new gamespeed file, because if it plays ok (it seems to be quite good for me, but I don't really have any frame of reference as I don't usually play fast games) then making a 'normal' 500-600 game should be a relatively easy thing to do, as we can just shift the game speed settings to something like 10-30% and that should net about a 500 turn game.

Ok I found the typos on my second look and fixed them.

You don't need to be in cheat mode to use AIAutoPlay. There are also a couple of other things you can do for debugging purposes:

Ctrl+Shift+X - Turn control over to the AI for a number of turns
Ctrl+Shift+L - Take over a another civ to play
Ctrl+Shift+P - Change the leaders of civs

Oh, great! Thank you both.

Next question: where does religion get assigned?
I am playing Families and just researched Capital Cities. I can build NCR Campaign Offices, but not the New Reno ones I should be getting. The prereqReligion for that "monastery" is RELIGION_NEW_CALIFORNIA, but I can't find the file to change it to New Reno. Presumably religion is assigned either right at the start of the game or at Capital Cities, and either along with or dependant on your civ trait.

// These numbers must correspond to the number of religions/corporations represented in the tga
#define TGA_RELIGIONS GC.getTGA_RELIGIONS()

Click to expand...

Also, I guess if something like the above returns one less than it should, then instead of the last religion (New Reno), it could end up assigning the next-to-last religion (New Cal).

hmmmm.. we will need to wait for archid for this.

It used to be a python function, but archid moved it to the .dll.

Did you build your state capital? Or did the religion spread into your civ from somewhere else?

I just founded religion in my game, and I am pretty sure it gave me the right one, I will double check now that you have mentioned it might be an issue, but I am the NCR.

Did you build your state capital? Or did the religion spread into your civ from somewhere else?

Click to expand...

I could make NCR monasteries in every city upon researching Capital City.
I have now built the National Capital and researched Mass Religion on the same turn. That gave me the choice to "adopt to this new capitol". I can click on "Yes...", which converts me to the "New Reno" religion or I can click on "No..." and convert to either separately.
The Religion screen says New Reno has a founding city and NCR does not. (Presumably it will get one when NCR the civ researches it.) It says New Reno was founded this turn and NCR a short while ago (presumably when I researched Capital City).
I can build New Reno campaign offices only in New Reno, which is the only city with that religion. I will need to make envoys to spread it.
I just got a test Pioneer from the WorldBuilder and started a test city; it doesn't have either religion. So it looks like things have started working the way they were intended; I just have a little extra research.

hmmm...

I will add it to the bug thread.

Lark said:

I guess if something like the above returns one less than it should, then instead of the last religion (New Reno), it could end up assigning the next-to-last religion (New Cal).

Click to expand...

Not really,
defines how many religion icons there are in the tga font files and is used when the game reads this file. If this value is wrong all sorts of bad things happen to the icons in the game. Unless you modify the gamefont.tga files you shouldn't touch this value. It has no bearing on gameplay at all.

The religion founded is defined by the favourite religion of the leaderhead. When you construct a building with the <bFoundReligion> tag set to true the DLL checks the favourite religion of the leaderhead and adds it to the city if it is not already present. It also sets the city as the holy city if one does not already exist. The relevant code is in CvCity->processBuilding:

I'm fairly sure the building is working, at least on completion. The problem is that sometime around researching Capital City and starting the building the mod assigned all my Family cities the NCR religion (without founding anything). I guess I should play a game as one of the other six civs and see if it does it again.

Looking at buildinginfos, only the National Capital has bFoundReligion.
This stuff makes my brain hurt, but I see five places with setHasReligion in CvCity. One where it declares the function, one to zero religion out on city construction, one in doReligion where it's used to spread (and remove weak) religions, kBuilding.isFoundReligion, and one that I think is supposed to give the city a religion if it builds a building. And I see nothing wrong with any of them, not that I would.

It is odd that you say the NCR religion was founded without a holy city. There is nothing in any of the techs that found religions, that only happens if there is a tech prereq set in the ReligionInfos, which isn't the case here.

Did you get the message that someone else had founded the NCR religion at any point?

No messages.

I've just played as far as Capital City with Ghouls with no problem. I will play a little farther and build a National Capital to make sure, and then do another game with Families to see if it's repeatable. With any luck it was either a harmless bug or me making bug fixes in the files while playing and getting side effects.

edit: (Though I didn't make changes in the relevant game.)

: A game as Families didn't repeat it. I did kill NCR by flipping Shady Sands before I researched Capital City, but that shouldn't matter. If it's not repeatable then I've been wasting your time. Sorry.