Reform and Rule

Playing right now, and the National Epic +15% bonus is wonky. Not adding up right at all -- the +15% from Rationalism is fine, though. The food added per turn is in line with what the (incorrect) amount is listed.

For example -- at -5 food, after the +15% National Epic bonus, I was at -4 food. At +14 food, it put me at +14.3. At +20 food, at +20.89.

On the other hand, after taking Rationalism, I'm clearly getting the +15% bonus -- note, growth is NOT according to total food, it is, as I thought, food *surplus*. So growth is not as good as holding food over, if when you grow, you aren't adding at least 3 food.

Also, strategery-wise, it is clear that just plowing through Tradition is a bad idea if you are going something OCC'ish. Tradition --> Aesthetics --> Tradition is far wiser.

Mach do you know what causes the ai to choose policies over other policies?

Just finished an Immortal Polynesia Archipelago game where I forced myself to play one city for the first 140 turns -- basically, until I had the Circus, Ironworks, Nat Epic, and East India. Built one other city after that (good moia spot along with 5 or 6 sea resources) and that's it. No mountain in the Cap, no trade routes possible to my cap because of weird, weird map. Won with culture around turn 285.

Observations:
1) 3 of the AIs hadn't even gotten to an ideology yet. One had an excuse, early cap loss.
2) EVERY AI took Piety 5 except for the one that took Honor 5 and the other (Shaka) that went Honor 3 and Commerce 5. No wonder I had no competition.
3) My cap had a lot of Wonders, and because of the massive tourism boosts in Order, had 400 tourism (only 100 from moia) at end of game. No Internet. No Visitor's Center. Just airports, hotels, and the Order belief that works as a hotel, and +100% tourism in cap because of the guilds + broadcast tower.

I guess what I'm wondering is whether that might be a little OP ...? Maybe not. I mean, if anyone wanted to seriously war with me, I was kind of screwed.

I think the biggest problem, not sure how fixable it is, is that the AI seem to hate good SPs. I don't know that any of them went Rationalism, which has an awesome ending boost. Only one or two hit Aesthetics, I think. But they luuuv the Piety.

TheGrumpyBuddha said:

Just finished an Immortal Polynesia Archipelago game where I forced myself to play one city for the first 140 turns -- basically, until I had the Circus, Ironworks, Nat Epic, and East India. Built one other city after that (good moia spot along with 5 or 6 sea resources) and that's it. No mountain in the Cap, no trade routes possible to my cap because of weird, weird map. Won with culture around turn 285.

Observations:
1) 3 of the AIs hadn't even gotten to an ideology yet. One had an excuse, early cap loss.
2) EVERY AI took Piety 5 except for the one that took Honor 5 and the other (Shaka) that went Honor 3 and Commerce 5. No wonder I had no competition.
3) My cap had a lot of Wonders, and because of the massive tourism boosts in Order, had 400 tourism (only 100 from moia) at end of game. No Internet. No Visitor's Center. Just airports, hotels, and the Order belief that works as a hotel, and +100% tourism in cap because of the guilds + broadcast tower.

I guess what I'm wondering is whether that might be a little OP ...? Maybe not. I mean, if anyone wanted to seriously war with me, I was kind of screwed.

I think the biggest problem, not sure how fixable it is, is that the AI seem to hate good SPs. I don't know that any of them went Rationalism, which has an awesome ending boost. Only one or two hit Aesthetics, I think. But they luuuv the Piety.

Click to expand...

Well the fix for that is to then buff the policies the Ai does like, but id prefer to be able to increase the ai picking other policies. i notice that the most picked AI policies from my own small personal experience is piety and tradition early

ok so i def see a trend here in the policies, the flavour is really high for liberty and piety. im going to lower that down

Resurrection said:

Mach do you know what causes the ai to choose policies over other policies?

Click to expand...

TheGrumpyBuddha said:

I think the biggest problem, not sure how fixable it is, is that the AI seem to hate good SPs.

Click to expand...

The AI doesn't attempt to parse the effect of any social policies, it only looks at the flavor values. The AI will avoid opening a new policy tree if they already have two open that are not complete. This results in the AI tending to finish their first policy tree and than grabbing what ever second tree their flavor weights dictate. They won't (like a human player often does) blitz down rationalism as soon as it is possible. As for the AI taking Piety, many AIs have a strong flavor for religion (or culture) and get drawn into Piety at the start of the game, and once they open Piety they keep filling it out until done.
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TheGrumpyBuddha, that is a pretty crazy Tourism engine you got going in that game. Turn 285 is a pretty good victory time too (standard speed I assume). I did want to give each ideology a method for generating tourism, so that culture victory wouldn't be entirely about National Visitor Center + Internet.

Resurrection -- one issue with the SP weighting is that I don't think the R&R Tradition is a strong tree unless you play it correctly -- for instance, especially, manning a specialist slot early. As I understand it, the AI hates doing that, so anything you do to push the AI to Tradition may not make it more competitive than it going Piety -- though you will annoy players who want to build the Hanging Gardens .

The ai also stinks at using religion effectively. I'd rather they at least have good growth.

I liked Race for Religion so much I decided to try out this one, well some of it at least. I have a couple of questions though. First of all, do the bonuses from patronage trigger if you puppet a city state (like with Venice)? Second, the birthplaces aren't working. I get a floating gardens and none of the benefits, no specialist slots or anything. Is there a way to fix that?

When a city state is "bought" by a Great Merchant of Venice (or diplo married by Austria) the city stops being considered a city-state by the game and the city will not get the bonuses provided by Patronage (no +25% yield, no extra specialists, no 250 one-time Culture). My concern is that it would probably be too good for Austria and Venice if they could get all of the Patronage bonuses.
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As for the birthplace buildings not working, Was this Freedom's birthplaces or Piety's? Were you using any other mods? And do you have a save from the game where it was happening?

A floating garden can show up if null value gets passed in instead of a valid building id. Clearing your cache (in your civ 5 directory) is a good (and easy) first step that may resolve the problem.

It was both. I have many other mods loaded, but I do have a save from when this happened, unfortunately it's a little too big to attach. Are you sure about patronage? I'm using the better city state capture mod and it triggers for puppeting city states with Venice.

Edit: Clearing cache did nothing. Where would the null value be coming from in the code?

With just Reform and Rule, Patronage won't provide benefits to city-states bought by Great Merchants of Venice (I did a quick test to confirm). It sounds like the "better city-state capture" mod you are using is why you're seeing Patronage's benefits. As long as the mod doesn't change any of the social policies I'm not concerned about there being any bug or errors that could be caused here, so I wouldn't worry about it.
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As for the birthplace issue, when the building-creating unit (as in: the great person or missionary or inquisitor) is born, are you getting a message on the right side of the screen* saying something along the lines of "Birthplace created"?

Do you think you can provide me your logs (via private message)? You'll need to enable logging (open your config file in notepad and edit the line to be: LoggingEnabled = 1). "Database.log" and "Lua.log" are text files that can be found in your "Civ 5/logs" directory. You'll need to start up civ 5, load the game, buy a missionary or great person (to get the code that spawns the birthplace to run) and then copy the logs.

This can be tricky and if I'm going to dig into this issue it will probably be easier (for you) if I can get a save file where you're seeing this behavior along with a list of all the mods I need to have to load the save file. I would need links to where you downloaded the mods or their steam workshop pages.

It should be possible to send a save file as part of a private message, I've had other people send me save files, but there is also dropbox if you're familiar with that.

*The same location as "unit lost" messages or "time to pick research/production/social policy" messages show.

Here are the logs and save file, I will list the mods soon. I also wasn't using the RandR patronage, sorry I should have mentioned that. I'm not getting any birthplace message (also just using tradition, liberty, asthetics, rationalism, freedom and order, but I presume the same error is happening in piety, as I had piety in a previous game and had a floating garden appear).

I would have provided them in a PM but there doesn't seem to be the option to add attachments to PM's.............

My database:

I really hope I can apply the same fix to Freedom.

Looking through your log it looks like at least one of the mods you are using hasn't been updated for BNW. The following lines from your log:


These only exist in pre-BNW when Freedom, Order and Autocracy were like the other social policy trees. In BNW, with the ideology system, these "openers" and "finishers" no longer exist. If you know which mod is referencing these you probably should disable it since it looks like it was never updated for BNW.

Machiavelli24, is anyway to add a policy for all civ from the start as default;

Azurial, that would be possible, but would require some fairly minor lua coding. Essentially you would do something like this pseudo-code:

It would probably be better (for the sake of compartmentalization) to implement this as a separate mod from Reform and Rule.

Really thx Machiavelli for the code, i will try it.

Well I can now safely say that my problems are gone and the birthplaces are functioning correctly. I think what happened was I was deleting the entries in the modinfo for the policies I wasn't using (Honor and Autocracy) and I didn't remove the references from the entry points, which confused everything. So far my only complaint is that Sphere of Influence's negative part stacks, which is very annoying. At least I was able to sneak the code for landsnecks and hidden sites into other policies, since I am not a warmongerer and therefore Honor and Autocracy are nearly useless for me. Are you going to flip the 15% growth and 15% carry over in Tradition and Rationalism?