Ask a Mormon, Part 4

Zack said:

"The church's commercial real-estate arm"? It runs corporation(s)?

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There are a few. I know the church owns a newspaper (The Deseret News) and a few radio/TV stations, in part to broadcast church conferences. There are also large cattle ranches and farms that are owned by LDS holding companies.

Profits are fed back to the church will allow to diversify income beyond just tithing, and help the institution pay cash for all real estate purchases, and to continue to offer hee-uge subsidies to run CES, the church education system that keeps institutions like BYU at *way* below market rate for tuition.

GhostWriter16 said:

I don't know a whole lot about Mormon theology, but that whole thing about people dying and becomming gods is definitely not in the Bible.

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Here's an article for your Libertarian side. It is written by someone who is not a Mormon who found that liberty is very important in Mormon theology.

Joseph Smith said, "the fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and the Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it ..." Most focus on our differences even though the fundamental principles are similar to all Christians.

The Bible actually has plenty of scriptures supporting becoming Gods, and most Christian theologies include the concept of divinization/theosis/deification but perhaps not as literally as Mormons, who generally refer to the concept as "exaltation". I could share some scriptures if you really want examples.

Nor is the idea that most people will reach one of the three heavenly kingdoms (Still wondering what the difference between people who go to Terrestrial and Telestial is as well?).

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Only very vague references are made to multiple heavenly kingdoms in the Bible. For example, "I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven. (2 Cor. 12:2)" It is mostly by revelations to modern prophets that we know of this. The scripture explaining who goes to what kingdom are available here, and the part about Terrestrial and Telestial starts around verse 71.

The Bible says that most people will go through the gate that leads to destruction. Not heavenly reward. Few find life. Few. Not most. The idea that God is supposedly married is totally absent from the Bible as well.

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Agreed. The idea that God is married is absent from all the canonized Mormon scriptures as well. It has only been taught by a few church leaders. It is viewed as a logical implication of some of our other doctrines such as that marriage is required for exaltation (but it isn't required for salvation).

Is it true Gaius Baltar from Battlestar Galactica is based off Joseph Smith and elements of Battlestar Galactic like the Lords of Kobol, the 12 colonies, the lost tribe, and promised world and such things are based off Mormon theology?

I am pretty sure that one of the writers on the original was LDS, and "Kobol" seems a pretty clear reference to "Kolob" (a Mormon concept that is far less important to our theology than a lot of people think). But beyond that I know of no other connections - I am sure they exist but am not that familiar with the show.

Red Key said:

Here's an article for your Libertarian side. It is written by someone who is not a Mormon who found that liberty is very important in Mormon theology.

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Yeah, I disagree with some of the theology there but I thought it was an interesting article nonetheless (The typical Protestant view is that Satan wanted to be God, while Jesus already was, so that part would not agree with my theology.) I should also mention that I am among the 78 percent that would have no problem voting for a Mormon. I might not agree with their theology but who cares? That's not the President's job. While I despise Mitt Romney politically, that's got nothing to do with his religion. I despise a lot of people politically

Joseph Smith said, "the fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and the Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it ..." Most focus on our differences even though the fundamental principles are similar to all Christians.

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Hmmm....

The Bible actually has plenty of scriptures supporting becoming Gods, and most Christian theologies include the concept of divinization/theosis/deification but perhaps not as literally as Mormons, who generally refer to the concept as "exaltation". I could share some scriptures if you really want examples.

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Yes, please.

Only very vague references are made to multiple heavenly kingdoms in the Bible. For example, "I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven. (2 Cor. 12:2)" It is mostly by revelations to modern prophets that we know of this. The scripture explaining who goes to what kingdom are available here, and the part about Terrestrial and Telestial starts around verse 71.

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Yeah, I always thought the "Third Heaven" was what you would normally think of as "Heaven" in contrast to the earth's atmosphere or space. I still think that that view is correct but I guess you could squeeze an argument for the three-heavens out of that. Even if you squeeze that out though, it still does not follow that most people will go to one of them, which Mormons do think. Evangelical Chrisitanity, and even the Catholic Church, hold that most people will indeed go to Hell.

downtown said:

There are a few. I know the church owns a newspaper (The Deseret News) and a few radio/TV stations, in part to broadcast church conferences. There are also large cattle ranches and farms that are owned by LDS holding companies.

Profits are fed back to the church will allow to diversify income beyond just tithing, and help the institution pay cash for all real estate purchases, and to continue to offer hee-uge subsidies to run CES, the church education system that keeps institutions like BYU at *way* below market rate for tuition.

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How do they keep their tax-exempt status if they're making income from a ginormous shopping mall and other such investments?

Eran of Arcadia said:

I am pretty sure that one of the writers on the original was LDS, and "Kobol" seems a pretty clear reference to "Kolob" (a Mormon concept that is far less important to our theology than a lot of people think). But beyond that I know of no other connections - I am sure they exist but am not that familiar with the show.

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In Battlestar Galactica Kobol is the planet all of humanity descends from where they lived in harmony with the Gods who are some kind of Greek pantheon of Olympians like Apollo, Zeus, Athena etc... until the fall happened and the 13 tribes departed, with 12 of them forming the 12 Colonies and 1 tribe becoming lost and settling on Earth. Is this the same as Mormon theology? Eventually Gaius Baltar becomes a Prophet of a singular monotheistic type God that gradually becomes the dominant religion. He also gets visions.

Zack said:

How do they keep their tax-exempt status if they're making income from a ginormous shopping mall and other such investments?

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I The firms themselves are registered like any other company and pay taxes (so the Deseret News or Bonneville Communications pay taxes just like the Chicago Tribune does)...they may all be owned by a separate holding company to keep tithing money and corporate money separate. We do know that these profits aren't used on say, high-end salaries for CES officials or programmers or LDS administrators or anything.

It isn't super uncommon for non-profits to invest in for-profit companies as a way of diversifying their investments though. I'd be shocked if other churches didn't do it.

GhostWriter16 said:

Yes, please.

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Here you go... From a Mormon perspective, The scriptures below refer to the doctrine of man's potential to become like God. There were even more examples, but I thought these were the most clear.

"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:" - Philip. 2:5-6
"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High." - Psalms 82:6
"The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?" - John 10:33-34
"The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together." - Romans 8:16-17
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." - 1 John 3:2
"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." - Rev. 3:21

Yeah, I always thought the "Third Heaven" was what you would normally think of as "Heaven" in contrast to the earth's atmosphere or space. I still think that that view is correct but I guess you could squeeze an argument for the three-heavens out of that. Even if you squeeze that out though, it still does not follow that most people will go to one of them, which Mormons do think. Evangelical Chrisitanity, and even the Catholic Church, hold that most people will indeed go to Hell.

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Well according to D&C 76 which I provided the link to earlier... The people in the telestial are "they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ... shall have perfected his work." It also says, "we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore." Thus, Mormons also believe most people will go to hell, but that the majority will ultimately be delivered by Christ. Mormons use the terms hell and damned in multiple ways. In the broadest use of the terms anyone not in the Celestial glory is damned because they will never be able to receive the eternal blessings available in the Celestial. In a more narrow use of the terms only those in "Outer Darkness" which is not one of the three kingdoms of glory would be considered damned or in hell. This can get confusing so Mormons usually use more specific terms that aren't used in multiple ways within our doctrine.

ace99 said:

In Battlestar Galactica Kobol is the planet all of humanity descends from where they lived in harmony with the Gods who are some kind of Greek pantheon of Olympians like Apollo, Zeus, Athena etc... until the fall happened and the 13 tribes departed, with 12 of them forming the 12 Colonies and 1 tribe becoming lost and settling on Earth. Is this the same as Mormon theology? Eventually Gaius Baltar becomes a Prophet of a singular monotheistic type God that gradually becomes the dominant religion. He also gets visions.

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Not the same. Has some similarities to Jewish history. There were 12 tribes of Israel. Ten were "lost" when conquered by Assyria in 720 BC. I know next to nothing about Battlestar Galactica, but I would like to watch it sometime.

There were 13 tribes in Jewish history. The tribe of Joseph had the two half tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh.

ace99 said:

In Battlestar Galactica Kobol is the planet all of humanity descends from where they lived in harmony with the Gods who are some kind of Greek pantheon of Olympians like Apollo, Zeus, Athena etc... until the fall happened and the 13 tribes departed, with 12 of them forming the 12 Colonies and 1 tribe becoming lost and settling on Earth. Is this the same as Mormon theology? Eventually Gaius Baltar becomes a Prophet of a singular monotheistic type God that gradually becomes the dominant religion. He also gets visions.

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That's the new series, not the original. Count Baltar was a very different sort of character.

Is/was Homestar Runner especially popular among Mormons? Here's evidence I've gathered for such a trend:

1. Strong Bad email #85 "2 years" was sent by an "E. Fullmer" about to go on a long trip. The Homestar Runner wiki claims that it was confirmed that the E was for Elder.

2. I've seen Downtown reference Homestar Runner on Facebook a couple times.

3. In the documentary Cleanflix, a Homestar Runner poster is seen in a Mormon-owned business in Utah.

The evidence really seemed pretty solid until I actually wrote it all out like that...

It is my understanding that that is the case. When I saw the "E. Fullmer" sbemail I figured it was a prospective elder. It is fairly clean absurdist humor, and I have known a lot of members who liked it for that reason.

I was Googling professors of religious studies classes at my college, and found this article. Thoughts? How common is it for Mormons not to self-identify as Christian?

David Mason said:

Christians respond that because Mormons don’t believe — in accordance with the Nicene Creed promulgated in the fourth century — that Jesus is also the Father and the Holy Spirit, the Jesus that Mormons have in mind is someone else altogether.

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Whether his self-understanding as a Mormon is typical I don't know, but I hope that his woeful misunderstanding of the doctrine of the Trinity isn't.

It's fairly unusual; although we have very different ideas of who Jesus was from mainstream Christianity, we do mostly identify as Christian. In fact, it can be a bit of a sore point when we are called non-Christian. He wouldn't be the first to say something like this, but he is definitely in the minority.

(As for the second part; it would not be surprising that most members don't really understand the trinity, since it's not our doctrine and all; but then, in my experience a lot of members of Trinitarian religions say they don't understand it either.)

FWIW, I certainly identify as Christian

Technically the only term in the Bible that corresponds with a Christian included those who accepted Jesus as the Messiah. It was the Catholic and by extension the Orthodox believers who actually framed their beliefs in creeds. Such statements today are called doctrinal beliefs. Those creeds and core beliefs define local or world wide groups but do not technically define what a Christian is. There have always been times since Jesus where a Messianic believer would resign to be called a Christian, because the known "Christian" group was not acting very Christ like.

I would contend that a Christian is not even a follower of Jesus if you take it in it's context. Christ was the term given to Jesus as the Messiah, not as a teacher who lived and had disciples known as Jesus. That would just be a follower of Jesus.

It has been argued that the writers of Jesus life were not the direct followers of Jesus. They would be Messianics who wrote the Gospels with Jesus being the Messiah as a central theme. Not really as Jesus just being a teacher from Nazareth who had a following. It would seem that there have always been different groups of people who follow their own set of core beliefs claiming to be "Christians" while trying to explain what the term Messiah even means. I would question whether a follower of the Messiah could even be called Abrahamic in the same sense, unless Abrahamics accept Jesus as the same God as Abraham's. The Abrahamic religions would just view Jesus as just another prophet in a long line of prophets. Prophet incorporating the term teacher, but not necessarily including Messiah.

There are a lot of ways to define the term; as with any word, the first definition is not the only valid one. I certainly identify as Christian as well, since I meet whatever qualifications I think should define "Christian."