A short question about Legalism?

Lordleoz · Dec 4, 2012

I currently have 3 cities and have adopted Legalism. I am planning to attack Buffalo and burn it to ground but I'm wondering if doing this will waste Legalism's free cultural building.

So does Legalism's bonus apply to :c5occupied:

annexed or :c5puppet:

puppeted cities?

Browd · Dec 4, 2012

Legalism does not apply to puppeted cities.

Lordleoz · Dec 4, 2012

Good. Thanks

Lordleoz · Dec 4, 2012

Then there will be a free building if I annex it?

spafey · Dec 4, 2012

I don't think so. You must annex then pick up legalism.

kaspergm · Dec 4, 2012

Hmm, have this been tested? I'm not sure that is true.

The Pilgrim · Dec 4, 2012

Browd said:
Legalism does not apply to puppeted cities.

That's not true. Free buildings are added in cities you have at the moment of adopting Legalism/Finisher. If the puppet was conquered after choosing Legalism, then free building won't be placed there but in the next native city you'll found. However the aqueduct from the finisher will pop in it, so beware.

Browd · Dec 4, 2012

This cried out for a test. Fired up a late-game autosave from culture game I recently finished. I had only founded 3 cities, no puppets, full Tradition. Located a 2 pop target (Mayan city, recently founded) to conquer. Spy confirmed the city only had walls, a library and a university. When conquered, the "View City" screen confirmed that the walls and library were destroyed, leaving only a university.

When puppeted (city still in revolt): Nothing but a university.

Puppeted (no longer in revolt): Nothing but a university

Annexed (no courthouse): Nothing but a university

Annexed (after courthouse): Nothing but a university and a courthouse.

Still true 5 turns later (just in case there might be a delayed effect of some sort).

Then I bought a settler and planted a new city: Free aqueduct and free monument

Conclusion: Legalism and the Tradition finisher appear to apply only to the first 4 cities you found. Puppeted and annexed cities do not get those free buildings.

Lordleoz · Dec 4, 2012

Thanks! --> all problems settled.

kaspergm · Dec 4, 2012

Browd said:
This cried out for a test. Fired up a late-game autosave from culture game I recently finished. I had only founded 3 cities, no puppets, full Tradition. Located a 2 pop target (Mayan city, recently founded) to conquer. Spy confirmed the city only had walls, a library and a university. When conquered, the "View City" screen confirmed that the walls and library were destroyed, leaving only a university.

When puppeted (city still in revolt): Nothing but a university.

Puppeted (no longer in revolt): Nothing but a university

Annexed (no courthouse): Nothing but a university

Annexed (after courthouse): Nothing but a university and a courthouse.

Still true 5 turns later (just in case there might be a delayed effect of some sort).

Then I bought a settler and planted a new city: Free aqueduct and free monument

Conclusion: Legalism and the Tradition finisher appear to apply only to the first 4 cities you found. Puppeted and annexed cities do not get those free buildings.

Thanx for taking the time to check this. I've seen contradictory information float around on this subject.

Browd · Dec 4, 2012

It occurs to me there is one last scenario to verify: confirm that cities puppeted and/or annexed before you take Legalism and the Tradition Finisher behave the same way. I doubt it makes a difference, but its worth checking.

So, the idea would be start the game, take the Tradition opener, then shift to Liberty. Before you found your fourth city, conquer a neighbor's city (making sure it has no aqueduct in it, and preferable no monument--otherwise you have to wait for Drama & Poetry to answer the question and who has the patience for that). Then take Legalism as your next policy. Prediction: No monument in your puppeted city and no monument after you annex that city.

Could then do the same thing for the Tradition finisher. Load an autosave from after you puppeted the city but before you annexed. Play through the rest of the Tradition tree without founding a 4th city. When you take the Tradition finisher, verify that no aqueduct appears in the puppeted city and no aqueduct after you annex.

Obviously all that would take longer that the quick test I did, but would put the last nail in the coffin.

The Pilgrim · Dec 4, 2012

Browd said:
It occurs to me there is one last scenario to verify: confirm that cities puppeted and/or annexed before you take Legalism and the Tradition Finisher behave the same way. I doubt it makes a difference

It does.

Louis XXIV · Dec 4, 2012

Browd said:
Before you found your fourth city, conquer a neighbor's city (making sure it has no aqueduct in it, and preferable no monument--otherwise you have to wait for Drama & Poetry to answer the question and who has the patience for that).

Actually, the ideal way to do this would be to wait until after the Renaissance, when you can put a spy in a city to confirm there was no monument previously. I don't know who would have the patience for that, though. I suppose you could start in a later era. Or, even better, do a test in multiplayer so you can just ask the other person to avoid building monuments.

Lordleoz · Dec 4, 2012

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Hyperion529 · Dec 4, 2012

Lordleoz said:
Perhaps it is because Ottomans have already completed tradition branch before you captured Istanbul.

i guess The Pilgrim checked the cities buildings before and after adopting legalism/finish the tree. otherwise, the testing would be rather pointless.

but your idea leads me to another, partly related question: do free buildings actually stay free if the ownership of the city changes?

The Pilgrim · Dec 5, 2012

Lordleoz said:
Perhaps it is because Ottomans have already completed tradition branch before you captured Istanbul.

I adopted Legalism on the same turn I captured Istanbul.

The truth is this subject was tested extensively a few month ago. Can't find the thread, somewhere in S&T. Just double checked with recent patch.

Lordleoz · Dec 5, 2012

^This is pretty strange.... :dunno:

Back to the first post: I had three city, each with a free cultural building from Legalism. Later I captured Buffalo, no monument there. Annexed it, still no monument. And I founded the my fourth city: free monument. So I reached the same conclusion as Browd.

The Pilgrim · Dec 5, 2012

Hyperion529 said:
but your idea leads me to another, partly related question: do free buildings actually stay free if the ownership of the city changes?

Doubt it. Irrelevant for Legalism, because cultural buildings get destroyed upon capture, but the aqueducts probably become regular ones, just like UB's. Too bad they don't get destroyed though. Who wants an aqueduct in captured city anyways?

The Pilgrim · Dec 5, 2012

Lordleoz said:
^This is pretty strange....

Back to the first post: I had three city, each with a free cultural building from Legalism. Later I captured Buffalo, no monument there. Annexed it, still no monument. And I founded the my fourth city: free monument. So I reached the same conclusion as Browd.

I don't necessarily agree with the logic behind this mechanics, but it is what it is. Legalism/finisher apply to captured cities only if at the moment of adopting the policy they are already under your control. It doesn't work retroactively. If you adopted Legalism prior to capturing Buffalo (which you did), free monument will pop up in next native city that will be founded. And that's exactly what happened.

Lordleoz · Dec 5, 2012

I was confused. I thought our conclusions contradicted each other but now I understand so here's the mechanic: If you first adopt Legalism, then capture a city, it will not get free building. But if you first capture, then adopt Legalism, the free cultural building will be present in the captured city.

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