Wars of non-conquest

I've just came around to the idea of having offensive wars with no intention of taking cities. I may be coming late to this like with specialist economies in Civ4. I didn't know that was a strategy until people kept using the abbreviation CE and SE and I had no idea what they meant.

In a recent game I was asked to fight France, who were everyone's enemy and since I shared no boarders and just had my UU (Comanche riders) I agreed. France's army was mostly occupied by Spain so I just pillaged their tiles. Nearly all of them. At the end they offered me a city in exchange for peace.
I think the reason I don't consider this is because it's much easier to measure your own gains rather than someone else's loss. In civ 4 I found spy missions to increase unhealth or unhappiness very disruptive when used against me but I never considered them against the AI because I wouldn't see the effect.

So am I the only one who didn't think to NOT take cities in war?

i dont think there's much point in going to war unless you're going to take a capital.. you may get offered some other city in a peace deal but those cities dont compare to capitals.. plus if they are so occupied with some other civ why not just march a small army and conquer? i dont really understand where you're coming from.. what's the point?

Wars of attrition...just killing AIs army can be enough to get a very favorable peace deal. If you pillage tiles then you probably have already killed his army.

Novalia said:

i dont think there's much point in going to war unless you're going to take a capital.. you may get offered some other city in a peace deal but those cities dont compare to capitals.. plus if they are so occupied with some other civ why not just march a small army and conquer? i dont really understand where you're coming from.. what's the point?

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2 words - stealing workers

I am with Novalia in that I don’t like to end wars until I have the capital, but yes, there is plenty to be gained without taking cities! In addition to pillage gold and free workers (both of which are not insubstantial), my favorite perk is being able to farm xp. Once you DoW, don’t stop until you are offered a very sweet deal, like luxes or a city. No need to keep the city if it’s indefensible or otherwise weak. Raze and sell buildings until it is hollow, then sell or gift to a civ far away from the original owner (the one you were warring with), so as to create tension between those two civs. With luck, they will get sucked into a war later. Prolly the city will go back to the original owner, but that’s okay. In the meantime, you got some gold, and created much havoc!

So, what do CE and SE mean?

There's a couple reasons to DoW with no intention to capture a city:
-Stealing workers
-Farming XP for a later conquest spree (or farming culture for Montezuma)
-Breaking a deal (after a costly bribe or WLTKD luxury)
-Ganging up on someone in hope for a juicy deal later

There are additional reasons, For example, you kill there army pillage there land. You allready in profit in units ex possible Great general and money from pillage. On top of that they (Or you why watching them) can offer nice peace deal of not taking city. If they happy to offer city in peace deal they most luckily to accept peace for all there gold, resources and GPT(instead of the city). So, you can be very rich and happy for 30 turns..

Mutineer said:

There are additional reasons, For example, you kill there army pillage there land. You allready in profit in units ex possible Great general [...]

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Great generals are often useful for grabbing extra luxes, fulfilling CS quests, and/or saving for Coal/Oil/Uranium insta grabs.

I do this whenever I see some opportunity for profit:
XP for my units, GG spawn, pillage gold, Trade routes? yummy.

Most important:
Profit from peace deals.

Try to squeeeeze the most out of them, leaving less for your allies.
They might even stay at war for a long time while you reap the rewards of an early peace deal.

I think fighting someone merely to kick them in the shins is totally worth it, it just takes some planning. Kill some of their units, break some tile improvements, just to slow them down for a little while. Plus, you get XP for your units, points towards a Great General, and a peace deal for some money and points towards your next Golden Age. The AI is pretty dire when it comes to fighting wars, so if I'm not fighting to defend my homeland against an overwhelming horde, I can take them to school without losing a single unit.

I call it sitzkrieg, for the WW2 buffs. Perpetual war, but no one really takes anything.

Early war is insane for gold production if you're good about caravans.

Had one game with just me and the inca on my continent. I kept that war going WAY longer than I could have, simply because I had a scout stationed on every possible path between his capital and the 4 city states that surrounded him, giving me 100g every couple of turns.

Can't beat that kind of income on turn 50.

I'll join a war an ally started, just to be difficult, especially if it is in a distant land. Meanwhile I'll be taking care of business in my own region, accumulating resources/cities/xp. Sooner or later my distant opponent negotiates peace and gifts me a city, I'll sell off all the buildings, then sell the city to my ally so he/she can continue the conflict. Rinse-repeat. I'm already a war-mongerer, might as well profit from the venture.

I do this plenty, but usually earlier in the game. I've taken to opening most of my games with a quick DOW to the nearest AI before anyone else knows. Its free so you get no warmonger hit with anyones else and they almost always aren't interested in fighting back with their 3 warriors and I can usually grab 2-3 free workers over time by hanging out around their borders and killing things that come out. I also can often find a CS they send trade routes too and pillage a few. Betwen this and tiles early war often nets me 2 free workers and around 300 gold for the price of maybe an extra unit which gets experience. Really jump-starts your early game on Deity/Immortal as the AI have workers immediately unlike CS and also I don't care to tick off CS as I mean to befriend nearby ones.

I don't always stay in a war until I get a sweet peace deal though as often they won't do more than simple peace unless I make a major offensive which I don't care to do early-game. There's no penalty for keeping a cold war going though other than you maybe losing trade routes and a trading partner. Weirdly enough I find 50% of the guys I opened with a DOW on ask for friendship not long after (maybe medieval). As Aztecs I DOWed william. Stole 2 workers, a settler, killed 3 units and pillaged several tiles and a caravan. Made peace after and it said he didn't hold a grudge. He was the first to offer to be my friend later anyway.

beetle said:

So, what do CE and SE mean?

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I guess it's Cottage Economy and Specialist Economy since he ist talking about Civ 4.

DocRock said:

I guess it's Cottage Economy and Specialist Economy since he ist talking about Civ 4.

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Thanks, that makes sense in context.

Doesn't seem to be mentioned yet, but another reason to war is to get better diplomacy. If you are at war with a common enemy--however you achieve that--that is a big diplomatic bonus. And one that could get you to DOF. Then you can take the weakling's capital and/or peace deal but you will still have the DOF. The guy you killed may not like you too much, but who cares, he's dead.

In this case it makes sense to join is as you would join the "France hating society" with a bright green(in some cases) diplo modifier with all civs involved in the conflict. Had you denounced France earlier then you would get an additional positive diplo modifier with those civs who had(or will) denounce France.
When asked to join a war don't see it as assistance rather "We wish to cane France but want to maintain our diplomatic relations, do you agree?".