Espionage points

I often play with espionage off, and I had been under the impression that if I build a building with espionage points those would be converted into culture.

Is that true or was it just a fever dream

Deleted as reply was perhaps not relevant for no espionage mode.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=337652

According to poster in that thread ^ with No Espionage checked Espionage points do indeed turn to culture.

Yes. I have tried this. Espionage points become Culture points. However, the number of Culture points needed to achieve each culture level go up far more than the number of increased culture points converted from espionage. So, if you don't care about culture levels and don't like the espionage system, go ahead and disable espionage. However, if you enjoy using the culture system, whether for culture victory or for city expansion and passive conversion of your neighbors' land and/or cities to yours, then putting up with the espionage system is a better idea. (Since I like the culture system, I put up with the espionage system, even though I dislike it.)

s.bernbaum said:

Espionage points become Culture points. However, the number of Culture points needed to achieve each culture level go up far more than the number of increased culture points converted from espionage.

Click to expand...

That's an interesting balance. Doesn't it become much more difficult to pop borders in the early game when you have no access to Espionage in any case (except from the Palace, which gives culture anyway)?

Lexicus said:

That's an interesting balance. Doesn't it become much more difficult to pop borders in the early game when you have no access to Espionage in any case (except from the Palace, which gives culture anyway)?

Click to expand...

Yes, it's more tricky, because the culture requirement is doubled, while you have no extra espionage available. I'm not a big fan of espionage either, but it's simply better to use it than not. Needing twice the amount of culture for border expansions is very limiting.

s.bernbaum said:

Yes. I have tried this. Espionage points become Culture points. However, the number of Culture points needed to achieve each culture level go up far more than the number of increased culture points converted from espionage. So, if you don't care about culture levels and don't like the espionage system, go ahead and disable espionage. However, if you enjoy using the culture system, whether for culture victory or for city expansion and passive conversion of your neighbors' land and/or cities to yours, then putting up with the espionage system is a better idea. (Since I like the culture system, I put up with the espionage system, even though I dislike it.)

Click to expand...

ah i didnt know that, i like the culture system, so i will probably revert to using espionage again.

Yep, better to just leave the espionage system on. It's really the way the game is designed to be played or not whether you use EPs or not.

You can use espionage more aggressively or just passively. Focus espionage on a single AI early, usually a strong techer like a Mansa or Pacal. Benefit is two-fold. First, you soon get to see what they are teching which can help with tech trading and tech pace. Second, you may decide to steal a tech or two.

More aggressive approach is building great wall and looking to pop a Great Spy for more aggressive tech stealing. An approach that is really more effective on the higher levels, simply as the AIs tech faster compared to you.

And then you have full-blown espionage economy, which is an advanced strategy. An economy IMO really more suited as a novelty.

(The culture system is a bit flawed regardless, but the transition of the espionage system over to culture with espionage turned off is quite the pain. Delayed border growth is more impactful than most might consider)

lymond said:

(The culture system is a bit flawed regardless, but the transition of the espionage system over to culture with espionage turned off is quite the pain. Delayed border growth is more impactful than most might consider)

Click to expand...

The more I've been thinking about it the more I feel like it's completely game-breaking. Would seem to make CRE much more powerful no?

It has some benefits to be off. If you run a spy and an engineer specialist, you are essentially running two engineers since you can't generate a great spy. So more great engineers in no espionage games.

It's kind of a wash. Creative is arguably less powerful, because the early game impact is halved, with 10 turns to border pop instead of 5. Early cities you would have put in a better place you might still adjust to have more in the first ring.