[POIL] Never used civics

@Joseph: don't get intimidated by a large power ratio between you and your neighbouring civs. AI still tends to massively overbuild healers and crimebusters (recent SVN). Like defending cities with 100+ enforcers or dozens of healers (see the three screenshots I attached and look at the units defending the cities). I conquered the city in screenshot 1 with only a few battering rams and 1 unit lost (even though he sent reinforcements), and got 80 captives, half of which I sold to Mansa Musa for techs.

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Plus the AI is apparently seriously bad at calculating odds of winning a large battle. In a -different- recent game playing Deity, the AI send a doomstack of various units against my doomstack (I had 50% terrain bonus), mid ancient era. The tech levels of our units were similar (we both had various strength 7 melee units, and arsonists) except he had war elephants while I only had horse riders (I also had half a dozen or so Mapinguaris. Mapinguaris rock!).

The result: the AI lost 97 units, I lost zero. Directly after that I attacked his weakened combat stack and killed 47 more units (rams and damaged units), again with zero losses on my side. Combat results like that cannot be explained by bad luck alone. The AI was obviously just plain suicidal. Or completely miscalculated the situation (which is odd as computers tend to be good at calculating well-described situations).

Don't think you've lost against the AI until you have actually lost. The AI NEEDS massive bonuses to compensate for its incompetence.

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(thumbnails below show city defenses for the first part of this post. No minor civs left so every civ has reached writing at least)

You say you had the problem of healer and law enforcement overbuilding on a recent svn. I suppose there are still some cases that could allow that but I wonder just how recent we're talking because just before the NPC split I did a lot of work that seemed to be good at correcting that.

Thunderbrd said:

You say you had the problem of healer and law enforcement overbuilding on a recent svn. I suppose there are still some cases that could allow that but I wonder just how recent we're talking because just before the NPC split I did a lot of work that seemed to be good at correcting that.

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That game Noriad2 referenced was v36 Official. He is just now playing an updated game with the 9265 Patch iirc.

And we have not had that problem since you did those fixes.

JosEPh

JosEPh_II said:

That game Noriad2 referenced was v36 Official. He is just now playing an updated game with the 9265 Patch iirc.

And we have not had that problem since you did those fixes.

JosEPh

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No, the screenshots about overbuilding healers and law enforcers are from SVN 9265, which is only a few days old. The other game I mentioned of the AI suiciding, also was SVN 9265 (I played a lot of hours the last few days)

Noriad2 said:

No, the screenshots about overbuilding healers and law enforcers are from SVN 9265, which is only a few days old. The other game I mentioned of the AI suiciding, also was SVN 9265 (I played a lot of hours the last few days)

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Really? You are seeing this build up again?

I have not, but then my games are not as developed because of the area of testing I'm doing. And the most developed is a deity level game that I'm trying hard to get to Classical Era. My neighbor's cities don't have this build up yet. They are mostly Mil fighting units.

But I guess if I can keep going in this game it may change to what you have experienced so far.

One aspect to consider though may be the Set up Options you have used and the set up of BUG. There could be something in either set that would make the AI do this kind of behavior.

Are you using Revolutions in your games? I generally do not. Rev's demands for stability could be one of the influencing factor(s) in play here.

JosEPh

Naw. Rev demands for stability wouldn't produce LE and Healers to address it. I'd have to look closely to see why they are overbuilding those but I'm glad it's a rare issue. It's entirely possible it's NOT overbuilding but reacting to real need somehow taking place.

From looking at the screen shots and the era it could be Upgrade cost coupled with unchecked disease and crime levels by particular leaders traits. (Monty is bad about letting crime and disease go because he Always wants to build that army and go conguering.)

For the AI in many situations it is less costly to build many lower level unit than to spend the treasury to upgrade. Current upkeep vs future expanded upkeep in both cost of building and cost of maintaining.

Or it could be as simple as too much or too little AIWeight or Flavor on the area of usage.

JosEPh

Doesn't seem like T-brd understood clearly, or I misunderstand what T-brd understands:
Tribal Warfare is broken.
It no longer give 40 Military Units Free and, worse even, adds +1 cost to ALL units.

Cheers

BlueGenie said:

Doesn't seem like T-brd understood clearly, or I misunderstand what T-brd understands:
Tribal Warfare is broken.
It no longer give 40 Military Units Free and, worse even, adds +1 cost to ALL units.

Cheers

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Yep StartegyOnly made changes to All Civics and broke Tribal Warfare in the process. I have some changes ready but have not submitted them yet.

I suppose I should do that asap.

JosEPh

I haven't compared but it feels like Monarchy got borked as well. I just lost over 100 gold a turn switching to it.

I did not know how TW was changed... just stating the intentions about how it was originally established. I'd put it back to 100 free units and 100 free military units myself but I'm leaving that up to Joe.

Taxman66 said:

I haven't compared but it feels like Monarchy got borked as well. I just lost over 100 gold a turn switching to it.

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Hah, because now they are giving that gold to your King. *chuckle*

Cheers

Right now it seems a good idea not to go to Monarchy before Medieval. You lose the Chief Hut when you leave the Chieftain Civic (although the hut should be the building of the local chieftain, and chieftains as local rulers should still be possible in a Monarchy, just not in a Democracy), whereas a conquerer-style player is probably better suited with Despotism.

Thunderbrd said:

I did not know how TW was changed... just stating the intentions about how it was originally established. I'd put it back to 100 free units and 100 free military units myself but I'm leaving that up to Joe.

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The number of Free Mil units was cut in half. The 1Cost per Mil unit was removed and instead was placed on any unit. The build times for melee, archer and throwing was added at rates of 60%, 45%, and 60%.

I changed it to 60 Free Mil units put the 1 cost back on Mil units and removed it from Units. Reduce the special build time to 50% for all tree categories. And added iFreeMilitaryPerPopPercent to >5< from 0. And left the Free Experience at >3<.

These were all StrategyOnly's changes from the original. Remembered he stated he changed Every Civic not just the early ones. So basically we have a new set of Civics. And SO likes complex Civics not simple ones.

One that stands out to me is Banditry. It was greatly boosted in many areas (like given 3 free trade routes). But this one I'm not sure of even why it was needed since it is the only Civic that give the Main HN units. All their build times were cut in half (50% increase).

I reduced the Trade routes to 2 and added 10% Maint Cost for Distance and Number of Cities. Still a very very strong Civic.

But I must say T-brd your multiple changes/additions to Criminal and Enforcement units, in conjunction with the HN units, plus Hide and Seek influenced Why he did what he did.

As I've stated before the Civic Banditry should have it's special buildings stripped away and the Special buildings (such as Bandit's Hide out for one) made to be as regular/special building builds for the Building Build Que thru out the game with out any Ties to the Banditry Civic or any other Civic.

By keeping Bandit's HO locked onto Banditry Civic it makes the Civic too strong to let go off. And when you do stop using Banditry Civic, you lose those special units for the whole game. This in conjunction with all the Special Content and Game Options for these Special Units distorts the whole Mod play. You either keep Banditry for the game or you cut out a big portion of the Options/Content by moving away from it. Was this even considered? Or was the thought that everyone would Want to use all the New Content Options all the time so they could eventually be Core?

JosEPh

JosEPh_II said:

The number of Free Mil units was cut in half. The 1Cost per Mil unit was removed and instead was placed on any unit. The build times for melee, archer and throwing was added at rates of 60%, 45%, and 60%.

I changed it to 60 Free Mil units put the 1 cost back on Mil units and removed it from Units. Reduce the special build time to 50% for all tree categories. And added iFreeMilitaryPerPopPercent to >5< from 0. And left the Free Experience at >3<.

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Interesting. Rather strong now that there's an experience bonus on the civic. Last I remembered there was no exp bonus.

One that stands out to me is Banditry. It was greatly boosted in many areas (like given 3 free trade routes).

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Hmm... you'd think banditry would create fewer trade routes unless he's talking about a black market.

But this one I'm not sure of even why it was needed since it is the only Civic that give the Main HN units. All their build times were cut in half (50% increase).

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Makes you wonder why you would make the only means to train criminals (up to a point) also reduce the build costs of them. I get that the build costs seem high now but most units are right now too low because they haven't yet been fully evaluated.

As I've stated before the Civic Banditry should have it's special buildings stripped away and the Special buildings (such as Bandit's Hide out for one) made to be as regular/special building builds for the Building Build Que thru out the game with out any Ties to the Banditry Civic or any other Civic.

By keeping Bandit's HO locked onto Banditry Civic it makes the Civic too strong to let go off. And when you do stop using Banditry Civic, you lose those special units for the whole game.

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Well... later criminal units don't require Banditry because they don't require the same building. The prerequisite of the civic pretty much ends with Assassins I believe, which is also when criminals become more reliable for use. And the added xp for units on tribal warfare would probably tempt me greatly to taking TW instead of relying on criminals at all.

This in conjunction with all the Special Content and Game Options for these Special Units distorts the whole Mod play. You either keep Banditry for the game or you cut out a big portion of the Options/Content by moving away from it. Was this even considered? Or was the thought that everyone would Want to use all the New Content Options all the time so they could eventually be Core?

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It was certainly considered.

Criminals aren't great combat units and they can be costly to use. They are strong in their way and with what they can achieve but can also be countered by clever opponents (which I do intend to make the AI capable of being in regards to this.)

Crime as a weapon can also be as harmful to use as not. The spawning criminals in your cities can be greatly impeded by not supporting crime as a state yourself because many of those criminals would only spawn because you built the buildings that enabled you to train such units, buildings which also enhance your crime levels which is the core cause of local barbarian criminal spawning in the first place.

If countered, criminals can become more expensive to have used than to have avoided its use in lieu of simply having a stronger/cheaper army. It makes for a Dark Side VS Light Side play style decision each player must make. If you choose one or the other you've got some strengths and weaknesses with each. Much the same as slavery, you get lots of potential penalties for using the dark but it can make you more powerful if you harness it and carefully guard against the backlash. You might see that this is leading to an eventual 'leader alignment' rating based on the way you choose to play throughout the game.

In fact, once the arrests feature is further developed out, you may be able to twist the darkness of criminals causing you trouble into a number of possible benefits.

Going thru the Rev section of all Starting Civics to compare with v36 Official release settings. And so far there were changes made to the modifiers in this section.

JosEPh