DocT3 Best Start Ever! (Emperor)

Joined
May 4, 2003
Messages
5,032
Location
Köln, Cologne, Colonia. Finally.
DocT3 – Best Start Ever!

While trying to find a favorable start for another Sid attempt, I ran into Seed # 2933868…

DocT3_start.jpg


Not exactly suitable for Sid, but certainly an “interesting” one :lol: . Did I already mention this is not even a BG? Well, at least we can hope for some resources (Iron Works someone :rotfl: ?).
(Originally started with Byzantium, but I want an IND Civ here. SEA is out of question, so Carthage is the Civ of choice here).

Settings:

Cold, wet, young standard size Archipelago; 70% water.
No Barbarians. Normal AI Aggression Level, random Civs (check F10, no other SEA Civ; some IND and Com ones, so no Tech monopoly). Usual victory conditions.
Emperor difficulty.

Sign-ups:
Doc Tsiolkovski
Romeothemonk (?)
Bigfoot
Greebley
Gyathaar

Rules:
As usual; this especially means no free Palace jump.

DocT3 start
 
Now on to discussion:

We could simply start a Settler; it’ll complete exactly with growth to size 3 in 30 turns. However, that looks like a bad idea…

Here’s what I think:
We can grow from size 1 to size 2 in “only” 10 turns @ 1spt. At size 2, we can make 3spt @ no growth by working a mined mountain. I’m not sure if the governor will pick a mountain tile with growth, though. Note even with our IND Worker, the first mine will be done in turn 13.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but the best opening moves seem to me:

Found on spot. I would normally move the Settler until I find decent land nearby, but there is no decent land…
Start with a Curragh, done in 12 (?). This will allow us to contact other Civs, and maybe find a suitable city spot.
Then, a Worker in 3 or 4 (depends on the governor when growing to 2).
Settler in 17 (10 turns @1spt, 7 turns @ 3spt; rejoin one Worker when the shields are in the box).

So, around turn 32 we have a Settler and Curragh, plus the starting Worker.

Alternatively, we could build a Warrior after the Worker, delaying the Settler for only 3 more turns. Since it’s not about getting a Settler out ASAP, but founding a second city, I’d prefer this – we should be able to finish another road, so we won’t even loose time.

Research is obvious, minimum on Writing. Then, I’d try Philo @max, and hope for MM.

For the first player (not me, I couldn’t resist to play a couple of turns into it, and thus I will go last): Please post a pic of our island once scouted (the 1st Curragh should sail around it ASAP), so we can discuss about the location of our future capital.
And everyone knows the screenshot from the discussion thread, guess the Curragh should go West to scan for settable land after contacting the Civ immeditely East.

Roster will be decided after check-in. Since we hardly will found a third city before a long time, everyone in the first rotation will get 20 turns.
 
Are we allowed to use knowledge about how surrounding area looks like from the posted picture in the planning thread, or should we just forget we ever saw it? ;P
 
I would strongly consider moving. Apolyton Tourney 4 was on THE worst start position I've ever seen (worse than this one) and the secret to success was to move.

Your palace will be in an awful spot, and waiting thirty turns for the first settler... Or worse... :eek:

Of course, that's if you want the best outcome. If you want to try playing from that position, that may also be doable. However, that city will never be a settler farm, so the later you found your second city, the later your real settler production gets going. Thus, I would beeline my original settler to better lands: avoid jumping through hoops and get straight to the real deal.


- Sirian
 
Sirian, I would completely agree with walking even for 30 turns, but that assumes there is an even remotely nice city spot on the whole island...

The island again

What makes this start so outstanding is not only the capital location, but the surrounding lands...

And the real power of SEA is the first Curragh. We may grow a bit slower, but we will stay in the Tech race.

Do you have a link to AT4?

Edit: Just found the thread on Apo. Seriously, our start is more difficult. While I do know nothing about the other starts, 3 AGR Civs let me assume at least one of them will have all the green lands. And while both games have no Barbs, in AT4 there where a couple of EXP Civs which basically lost the trait - we have none. AT4 was Monarch. Plus, in AT4 there where no Curraghs (ptw). If it would have been c3c, moving 1 tile to the game and starting with a Curragh would have been the best move IMHO. And let's not forget, overall playing skills have improved largely since that time...

AT4 start
 
Checking in Doc.
Slot where you think I will do the most damage (hopefully to them not to us).
 
From the same turn we grow from size 1 to size 2, the volcano is available to be worked.. the volkano will directly give us 2spt (same as mined mountain).. so imo it would be better to have the worker start roading instead of mining.

The mined mountain wont be better than the vulcanu till after it has both road and mine (unless the volcano erupts ofcourse... :rolleyes: )

first 9 turns will be 1spt, then 3spt at size 2 if we work volkano (assuming the volkano is picked on growth).

curragh will take 11 turns,
we can then build another curragh in 5 turns with no loss (I would prefer this to a warrior),
then worker in 4 turns,
followed by settler in 16 turns (join the 2nd worker in the turn before settler complete so the starvation comes same turn the 2 pop from settler is removed from city.. I believe the pop for settler is removed first before it checks for starvation?)


Edit: Forgot to mention.. since this is on emp diff, and we just have 1 content citizen, we have to pump up lux tax on turn 9, because the govenour will autocreate clowns if city growth is on same turn as cultural expansion and the placement of citizen on high shield tile would cause city riots (no 1 turn grace period in this case)
 
Good comments, Gyathaar.

From the same turn we grow from size 1 to size 2, the volcano is available to be worked.. the volkano will directly give us 2spt (same as mined mountain).. so imo it would be better to have the worker start roading instead of mining.
The risk that volcano will errupt once or twice in the first 50 turns is almost 100%. Volcanos errupt once/1000 years, not considering if that are only 20 turns. Maybe we can save a turn or 2 for the first Curragh that way, but I want the mine by all means. Plus, we desperately will need the 1gpt from the roaded mine.

Good catch on the lux tax when growing.

Warrior or Curragh are equally valid choices. We may need the Warrior to scout our landmass, if that isn't possible with a ship; IMHO we should decide after the first Curragh is on the way. But in any case, I would get the 2nd Worker directly after the 1st Curragh, remember how many mountain tiles we have to road to get the Settler somewhere acceptable...
 
Yeah, its high risk the volkano will erupt.. but it will atleast allow us to work a 2 shield tile a few turns earlier (unless it erupts before turn 10).

Erupt chance isnt 100% thou.. in most games I play a vulcano usually erupts only once the entire game, and in GOTM4 for me, not a single volcano erupted during the entire game... and I played histograph win (never seen that happen before thou :p )
 
Checking in. This looks to be a challenging start, to say the least. I am guessing we are in the extreme N. in our world, is that right? Maybe there is some clear land with a food bonus in the southern reaches of our rock. With the seafaring trait we should be able to make early contacts and take advantage of the slow tech pace this game will have. That makes me incline towards a 2nd curragh for our third build as well, although as Doc pointed out we may need to build a Wa. first to explore the interior regions.
 
Well, this must be a pretty cold planet - Carthage is a bit S of the Equator,not the North Pole :lol:

Ok, what about the Roster, now that everyone has shown up:

Gyathaar - seems to have thought a lot about the opening moves already, and checked in first anyway
Greebley
Romeothemonk
Bigfoot
Doc

Don't see anyone objecting, so Gyathaar, grab it and go ahead; please include a screenshot of our lands, we will want to discuss where city #2 will go.
 
I agree with Sirian that moving is probably the best play - even for this one. Even 20 turns wasted moving is still probably a win. However, since we know the surrounding territory we can't possibly duplicate what we would do if we had no knowledge.

So I think we should specifically play the variant where we settle in the spot that we were given by the unmerciful civ gods and see where things go from there.
 
Doc T said:
Sirian, I would completely agree with walking even for 30 turns, but that assumes there is an even remotely nice city spot on the whole island...

A safe assumption. Once upon a time, players could only start on land masses with luxuries present. That has since changed, but it is still a map creation imperative. Where are the luxuries?

I would move. Odds are, it wouldn't take thirty turns to reach a better spot. Probably quite a bit less.


I grabbed the start file to play a shadow game, as I was curious to test which way would work out better. There are few situations I've encountered rarely, and starts this bad are among them. Might have been fun. However, in the start file, you have already planted the city. ::shrug:: Oh well. :)


Doc T said:
let's not forget, overall playing skills have improved largely since that time.

A. I disagree.
B. Conquests has made the game considerably easier.
C. Relative playing skills then and now have little to do with how best to play an awful start. The choice on whether to move is clear and simple: either moving will work better, or it will not.


Doc said:
Seriously, our start is more difficult.

We don't know that, yet. Might be, might not. Poly Four had room for three size 6 cities, the first only six moves from the start point, plus room for more fishing villages, but it also had a hostile neighbor packed in on the south part of the island. Player comes under early attack and must win the war. There were no curraghs, and AIs trade contacts at Writing, not the middle ages.

If you settle ON the start point instead of moving, Poly Four is definitely worse than this game, and by orders of magnitude. The fish here allows a settler to be built, eventually. No such luck in that old game. If you settle where you start, you're a size 2 OCC. :lol:

This map has to go farther to find better lands, and we don't yet know what will be found -- maybe nothing but more ice -- yet I say the odds favor finding a better spot. We'll just have to wait and see how it goes. :)


- Sirian
 
Settling on spot and live with it is what this game is about ;)
But I don't really agree with Sirian on that topic - IMHO a Curragh in turn ~15 is worth more then a Settler for a map like that on a level without a second AI Settler.

(And in general, I think 'Growth' is slightly overrated; I played a number of 20k Deity games recently, and hardly had more than 5 cities when entering the Middle Ages. But since those cities were well-defended, and my capital made huge amounts of commerce,I felt a lot better than is those 'Expand like mad with paper-cutouts and no time for infra'games. Just my 0.02€ )

Gyathaar: 20 is correct.
 
@Sirian:

Seed number is in post #1.
AT4 is ugly, and you MUST move the Settler there - but 1 tile NW is already a better spot than our start. And note I cannot compare the games, only the starts; from the reports, AT4 was mostly brutal because 2 other Civs had outstanding starts.
About playing skills: In the only AT4 thread I could find (this game was back in Jan.,2002) several players did found on spot(not moving towards the Game)...Guess nobody would do that nowadays.
 
Back
Top Bottom