COTM 13: First spoiler (end of ancient age)

COTM13: First Spoiler

In order to read this thread, you must have reached the middle ages, and must have contact with all surviving opponents. You must also have the map of the majority of the starting continent, including at least the location of the capital city of each civilization.

This thead is for the discussion of happenings up until the the discovery of your first middle-ages tech ONLY. There is no restriction on the posting of screenshots or minimaps as captured within that time frame, except that they may not reveal details of the interior of landmasses other than the starting one. (In other words, if you can't see it from a curragh or galley, don't post it in this thread.)

This map was designed deliberately to be harder than recent C/GOTM deity games, particularly in the low-food start, but it should also have had its compensations. Were you able to take advantage of the ultra-high commerce to keep up in tech? What were your priorities in terms of expansion? Food, resources, luxes, something else? When did you get contact with civs other than the two nearest, and by what means? And finally, any trouble with the neighbors, or did the huge amount of room to expand into keep them docile?

Once you have posted your spoiler, be sure to head on over to the Hunting Tips thread and offer your wisdom to the conquest-class players.

I do hope you're enjoying yourselves.

Renata

Open

Welp I'm brand new to conquests. I don't even really know what the difference between C3C deity and PTW deity is, if there is one. Is it harder or easier? Hard to tell with this map since the start location was a rather tough one, as Renata says. No food bonus for the capital on deity is very difficult.

Anyway I started out by settling on the gold hill and was very disappointed to find no food bonus in the newly uncovered tiles. My worker went to road and mine the bg's. I made 4 different warriors before building my first settler. This is because the settler would have been ready 1 turn before size 3 if I didn't build the 4th warrior. My first warrior went east then north. My 2nd warrior went kind of nw. My third warrior went south then west. My fourth warrior stayed home for mp when he was needed (my capital was at size 1 quite often) and explored a bit to the east when he wasn't.

My research was set to Math at maximum since we started with Masonry and Alphabet. I really did not think I could accomplish any slingshot at all, even if I went straight for philosophy, nevermind a republic slingshot. I'll be extremely impressed if someone pulled that off in this game.

I was fairly happy with the food bonuses, gold hills, rivers and luxes that were all about. I also noted a great deal of land in the south to settle into if I got a chance to. So the position wasn't too cramped. The food bonuses were not that close though and prompted for a wider than normal initial city placement. I built my first settler 1 turn after Paris turned size 3. I sent that settler north to the plains wheat. My other option would have been east to the cow. The reason I opted for the lower food bonus is due to all the forests around the wheat, which could be chopped to rush a granary build.

So Orleans was founded in 2750BC by the wheat, building a granary right away. Orleans would be my primary settler factory but I would build settlers in other cities as well. Paris built a granary next, completed in 2270BC, followed by another settler.

I met the Arabs in 3100BC and the Portuguese in 2470BC. I traded Masonry to the Arabs for Pottery and 20g. I didn't have anything the Portuguese wanted.

In 2190 I finished researching Math, 1 turn after the Arabs got it, which they promptly traded to Portugal. This made it a completely worthless tech and I was quite despaired by that. I couldn't believe the AI went for Math before Writing even. I now only had two techs I could research that the AI's didn't have yet. One of those was Currency and the other Writing. I knew for sure I wouldn't get Writing before the AI and I thought I'd have no trouble getting Currency. The problem is if I researched Currency when I don't have half the first tier techs yet then I'll get very little value out of it. So I decided I would research Ceremonial Burial and Bronze Working before researching Currency. So I researched Ceremonial Burial in 1990BC and Bronze Working in 1675BC, before switching to Currency.

In 1990 Orleans finishes its granary and starts on a settler. I founded my third city (Lyons) in 1870BC by the cow. Lyons built a worker first. Paris built a barracks after the 2nd settler as it was not growing enough to put out constant settlers. Paris would then build spearmen between settlers. Orleans built nothing but settlers for the rest of the expansion phase. Lyons also built settlers after the first worker, but did not build a granary until much later (past 1000BC when my notes stop recording buildings). My third city (Rheims) was founded by the furs to the NW in 1575BC. My goal for city placement was to settle the northern area first, while prioritizing the cities closest to Paris. I wanted roughly 12 tiles per city of course.

The devious strip of land. Early on when my first warrior went south and west I had a hunch there would be something over there for some reason. Probably just because there was so much land available. Unfortunately the way he was exploring I was trying to uncover all the land around Paris so he kind of looped north a little bit as he went west, causing him to run into ocean. This made me abandon my theory that there was something down there. Thankfully, though, when Paris dropped in size again and didn't need its military police I sent that warrior to finish uncovering the tiles in the southern area. Sure enough that warrior discovered that there was a long strip of land leading west. While he was traveling that way I took a more general view of the map, noticing the almost straight line of mountains cutting right through Paris. Sure I had noticed it before but not how perfectly straight it was. I bonked myself on the head, because that's a sure sign that there had to be something down there.

Anyway I finally met a Roman warrior/settler pair in 1375BC. I was up Math on him but he didn't value it very highly at all. I ended up having to pay him Math +12gpt for Writing. I then turned around and traded Writing to the Arabs for Mysticism. The Romans don't value Mysticism very high either, making me pay Mysticism +1gpt +3g for Warrior Code. Sure enough on the same turn my exploring warrior spots green borders. I cursed myself for not waiting a couple turns before making those trades. So in 1325BC I meet the Aztecs, but can't make any trades with them, since I'm sure the Romans already gave them Math. I didn't meet Egypt until 925BC, Byzantines until 410BC and I didn't meet the Incans until beyond this spoiler thread.

Wars: The Arabs and Portuguese had a small war between each other. I know they were at war in 1000BC and not sure when it started. They made peace in 650BC. I'm sure this helped slow down their expansion so I could get a couple more cities down.

Back to the tech front. My Currency research payed off. I was the first civ to Currency in 775BC. Here's the excerpt from my timeline:


I did just beat the Egyptians to that iron source.

So next I researched Republic. While researching Republic I met a nasty string of demands. First Portugal demanded Construction, then Rome demanded 43g, Aztecs demanded 40g and the Arabs demanded Currency. I gave in to them all grudgingly. I learned Republic in 490BC, becoming a Republic in 370BC (6 turns).

As for the QSC in particular, here is a screenshot at 1000BC:


9 cities, 22 pop
5 workers, 5 warriors, 3 spearmen
2 barracks, 2 granaries
Bronze Working, Masonry, Alphabet, Pottery, Warrior Code, Ceremonial Burial, Mathematics, Writing and Mysticism.
23 gold, Currency in 13 turns making 4gpt on 5.4.1
Score: 356

I left this spoiler in 230BC, learning my first MA tech. At this point I had 16 cities, pop 47.

Here's my cool animated minimaps courtesy of CivAssist2.

Well it did not go well. I settled on the start hill. By 1000 I had
5 cities
151 gold
15 people and 1 settler
All first level techs except the wheel; I had writing, and in two turns code of laws.
The Arabs kept pissing me off demnanding tribute (I paid) and sending settlers across my property so I asked them to get off my land in 975. Well they declared war. By 550 BC I was down to Paris and in 90 BC I succombed. In the years from 1000 to 90 I did meet the Romans, Aztecs and Egyptians in addition to Arabia and Portugal.

conquest class. 1st COTM
Settled immediatly on the hill, went for republic slingshot. ended up missing out, and also ending up at least 4 techs behind.

entered middle ages about 250 AD knowing everyone, but 5-7 techs behind. so far everyone but me has warred. im not planning a win, im planning survival.

Predator

I settled on the spot. Second city was by the cow to the east. I also settled by the two closest deer fairly quickly and didn't worry that much about the luxuries and the iron. It worked out and we still had two iron in our territory at the end of the age (730 BC). I met Aztecs through cultural expansion when they finished Temple of Artemis in 1225 AD .

Technology
I beelined for Philosophy not knowing what I would get as a free tech (if I got one.) When Arabia popped Polytheism I saw that Monarchy was feasable. When I learned Philosophy in 1650 I traded it for Polytheism and Warrior Code and got free Monarchy (6 turn anarchy). Republic would have been preferable, but our expansion picked up as a monarchy. I then turned to Mathematics and Currency. Mathematics gave a monopoly. Currency did not but it was enough to trade us into the Middle Ages.

QSC Stats
9 towns
3 settlers
7 workers
9 warriors
1 granary
1 barracks
3 contacts, no embassies
horses, incense connected
Missing Currency, Construction, Map Making, HB, Literature, Republic

730 BC
16 towns
8 workers
10 warriors
4 chariots
1 barracks, 1 granary, 1 temple
still 3 contacts, no embassies
furs connected

Plans
Must crank out more workers. The cow town and the deer towns will have to take care of that.

Portugal built both Pyramids, Colossus and Great Lighthouse. Arabia got Hanging Gardens. I will try to time a wonder of my own to be finished once I've captured a couple of those. But with this pace it could be tricky to build any wonder at all.

@azzaman
I'm impressed with how many cities you were able to build. New Paris?? What strategies did you use to be able to pull that off?

@Megalou
Shows how much of a crapshoot getting monopoly techs is. You did writing and philosophy before doing math and still got math before the AI. I went straight for Math and the AI beat me to it anyway. But I did get a monopoly on currency while you didn't so I'm not complaining. The currency monopoly was enough to fill my coffers and get me to the middle ages since the Arabs and Portuguese had not met any of the other civs. This meant it was pretty much a double monopoly tech. I traded it to the Portuguese but then the Egyptians still considered it a monopoly tech since they didn't know Portugal. I also think you were lucky that polytheism had been researched already when you got philosophy. I don't think it's normal for the AI to get poly that quickly.

I'm curious how you got the iron in your borders through normal expansion. The two iron sources were very far away from Paris. You had the same number of cities as me. So why would you have cities out in the third ring already? Or did you use a very wide city spacing? A screenshot would be nice.

@ Shillen -- Conquest players started with two settlers. I'm sure that helped.

Renata

As others, settled on the spot to get the gold for extra research beakers. Started writing at max.
In 2900BC met Portugal and Arabia at the same turn and was able to aquire BW, pottery and CB with our starting techs.
Since the AI's seemed to come from north, in 2670BC founded Orleans to claim the northern wheat, since the and expand north.
In 2270BC the research on writing research actually paid off and we could trade as monopoly to get mysticism, WC and the wheel from Portugal
I then started to try a philosophy run with max research.
Since writing brought me to tech parity, I didn't trade anything with Arabs. In 2070BC we were able to trade writing with Arabia to get IW.
Spotted the iron in Arab land and way south. Settled Lyon in 1600BC to claim horses east of Paris.
The philo slingshot paid off as we got it in 1500BC, pressed F4 to trade maths for philo and get currency as free tech. Proceeded to trade currency for MM with Portugese and get HBR and polytheism from Arabs. this put me into a nice tech position even without the GL.
With so few cities I did not even bother to try that. I also switched off research completely after that, trying to gain cash to trade.
In 1275BC founded Rheims to expand west towards the iron, in 1025BC Tours to get sea access in the west. 670BC Marseilles to claim eastern cow and
590BC Chartres to get incense hooked up.

In the meantime I found out that our Island streches a lot to the west, which I did not expect at all. met more Civs (Egypt, Byz and Aztecs and later Rome)
Byzantines had settled 2 towns on our continent and I declared war to gain those towns in 550BC. Settled further south to get closer to the iron, which I aquired with founding Bescancon in 350BC. Expanded one more town, then declared on Portugese and allied Arabs to keep the Portugese off our land (Arabs nicely acting as a buffer).
Captured 2 Portugese towns in the east in 210BC and 150BC
In between I got construction and literature from the other Civ's through trading.

Entered the MA in 110BC when I gained 2 MA techs (more in the next spoiler)
110BC stats:
Score: 578
Culture 540
Cities: 14

I just spolied myself out of this game, although I more or less resigned a few days ago.

One very annoying thing happend to me that started the game off on the wrong foot. Instead of making sure I secured the luxury to the NW, I settled my second city on the river to the NE with the intention of settling the luxury next. Instead, I lost the core location to the arabs, who swooped in before I could claim it. I know the AI knows where everything is, and usually it doesnt bother me but this was annoying considering how much land was avaialble.

I eventually took the town. I fought no less than three AA wars with the Arabs, I won two of them. The third war did me in because I neglected to garrison my horse supply. I lost the resource and the core town that housed it to a single spearman. I didnt have enough local troops to retake it.

It's a shame because I think I was doing well and my best days were ahead. The chips just didnt fall quite right on this one.

budweiser said:

Instead of making sure I secured the luxury to the NW, I settled my second city on the river to the NE <snip> I lost the core location to the arabs, who swooped in before I could claim it.

Click to expand...

Don't worry, happend to me exactly the other way around.
So, that wasn't a bad decision in general, just bad luck.

Conquest players started with two settlers. I'm sure that helped.

Click to expand...

Ah yeah, I had forgot about that. He still got a lot of cities even with 2 settlers. I forgot to mention in my spoiler that I played open class.

Don't worry, happend to me exactly the other way around.
So, that wasn't a bad decision in general, just bad luck.

Click to expand...

I think luck is a major factor in hard deity games. Luck with tech monopolies, luck with settling location, luck with wars, luck with wonders, etc. That said, Megalou's game from GOTM43 (if you're able to read that spoiler thread) should prove that even a large amount of bad luck can be overcome. I know I'll be less likely to give up the next time I find myself in a poor situation.

@ shillen
i think the other continent had many early wars distracting them from taking my area. i wasn't quick expanding, just they were slow. my early city placment chocies weren't very good. Brest is one of the last cities i built, unfortunately. i couldve used that deer well. and ive gone for an ultra defensive strategy which involves avoid war at all cost. (i have about 2 spears per town for my entire military.)

Shillen said:

Here's my cool animated minimaps courtesy of CivAssist2.

Click to expand...

How can one make such cool animation using CivAssist2 ? I just downloaded & installed it and cant seem to find out how can i watch my early progress like that ? It just shows the current minimap from the save i loaded, but theres no option to "play" it like that Shillens attachment does

Sorry if this question is not exactly GOTM related, but i dont really read any other forums

Seeing as I have never won a deity level game, I would love feedback from the higher level players. I do pretty well on Monarch games so I am playing this one in the Open class. If I posted some saves for review/criticism, should I post them on this thread, or would it be better suited in the Hunting Tips thread?

I will post my spoiler later.

the hunting tips thread is for Conquest Class players. I suggest you post your spoiler here with some supplementary questions on how you are doing. Please don't post any save that provides visibility of the map beyond the spoiler rules.

Azzaman please remove the map of the other continent.. I almost saw it but quickly watched away. Can't remeber it and think I never will, but I grabbed a couple of beers to be sure.

There's only one minor thing wrong with azzaman's map according to the parameters I posted up above, and I think I'll let it pass.

C3C is harder to set spoiler parameters for than PTW/vanilla is, due to the delayed contact and map trading. I required contact with all 7 civs for this spoiler, figuring that the vast majority of people would go about getting those contacts by active exploration, and would therefore know most of the world's shorelines anyway by the time they qualified for this thread. I didn't see any point in requiring people to edit their minimaps for the sake of the relatively few people who'd be sitting back and waiting for the AIs to come to them, not on a map like this where the correct direction to explore overseas was deliberately made pretty obvious. Maybe I misjudged?

Renata

Predator

I settled in place.
A lot of civs with pottery around, so I decided to gamble on being able to buy it, even though I want to have an early granary.
I have 16 turns to meet somebody, before I have to decide between granary and barracks.
So science to writing @ max for a quick shot at philosophy.
Build 2 warriors then granary prebuild.
First warrior goes straight north, second straight west (no time to scout immediate surrounding).

contacts
3300 Arabs; I trade right away. They don't value alphabet much, so better now a little than later nothing.
2750 Portugese
1300 Egypt; my warrior was parked in the extreme west in view of the Aztec border, but an egypt galley was first.
1225 Aztecs; finally

That's it in the AA. Didn't find the Byzantines and by that had bad luck with my first MA research.
No war and only one demand for a few gp.
I always ran 100% research as long as the neighbours could give me a loan.
But with no barbs there is no fresh money coming in, so I had to reduce the science spending sometimes.

science

3300 traded for pottery and CB
2270 writing researched; traded for BW, TW, WC and mysticism.
1750 philosophy researched; traded for math and IW via TBP, then got free construction; traded for MM
1375 literature researched; traded for HBR and polytheism
1275 traded CoL
975 currency researched; trade for monarchy and republic (could broker on both continents)

Enter MA and revolt for 4-turn anarchy

cities
4000BC Paris
2590BC Orleans; second gold hill
2390BC Lyons; third gold hill
2030BC Rheims; cow
1675BC Tours; incense
1475BC Marseilles; coastal to the west and deer
1425BC Chartres; deer and horses
1325BC Avignon
1125BC Besancon
1050BC Rouen; southern fur and iron. Grenoble; coastal east

11 towns, 21 pop
2 granaries, 1 barracks, 1 library
1 settler, 7 workers
8 warriors, 2 archers, 1 galley
4 contacts, 3 embassies

975BC Dijon




It doesn't look good for a quick golden age. Portugal has the commercial wonders. Arabia and Inca (pyramids ) the industrious.
I cannot fight Arabia and Portugal at the same time and Inca ...

An anyways late golden age and the commerce rich homeland points towards a (more or less) peaceful science game.

And BTW, before somebody asks, I'm already in industrial age having full world map in my game, so I qualify for the spoiler even though it doesn't show in the above post.

I can't see any justification for moving the settler.

I met the following civs: Arabia in 2750 BC, Portugal in 2670 BC, the Inca in 1100 BC, Rome in 730 BC, and the Aztecs in 690 BC. The overseas civs were meet because they landed on my landmass. I have already played to the IA and found the other civs to meet the requirements to post in this thread.

I hold up well in the AA for techs thanks to monopoly techs in Mathematics, Writing, and Philosophy. I got good trade value from Construction as Portugal sees it as a monopoly tech and gives me several techs. The other continent is clearly ahead as I don't get a bonus tech from Philosophy.

I leave the AA in 630 BC. I am pretty caught up to date in tech, so I can't complain for this being a "deity" game. So far it has seemed too easy. I am still waiting to see what the sadistic twist is to the game.

QSC Stats:
7 cities, 8 workers, 7 warriors, 10 spearmen (all vets), all first and second tier techs along with Philosophy. My score is a pretty weak 2,483. I can tell I started early, as I am just the second player to submit a QSC game.

This is the empire as of the end of the QSC period. As you can see I already secured incense, furs, horses and iron.

Shillen said:

I'm curious how you got the iron in your borders through normal expansion. The two iron sources were very far away from Paris. You had the same number of cities as me. So why would you have cities out in the third ring already? Or did you use a very wide city spacing? A screenshot would be nice.

Click to expand...

In C3C, rings are not an issue. We can just go for the best tiles. The rings was an unfortunate bug allowing less corruption, fixed in C3C.

Here's my territory map of 730 BC. As you can see from the lack of roads, the iron towns are quite new. I'm a bit surprised that the AI hadn't settled more towns near my territory. I suppose there is just a lot of room on this map. But I agree that they should perhaps have captured the iron by then. There are a bunch of Arabian settlers running around Cherbourg (top left.) The "2 tile rule" (AI won't settle within 2 tiles, including diagonally, from another town) served me nicely there to the west.



PS You did a better job than me with the contacts. When I realized most civs would be reachable by coast, I should have settled a coastal town quicker. But I didn't get Map Making until the end of AA anyway.