Is 4000 BC Turn #1 or Turn #0?

ruff_hi · Apr 30, 2006

Is 4000 BC Turn #1 or Turn #0?

This may be a trivial question but with all SGs basically counting turns, it is important to know if you need to finish when the counter says Turn 21 or Turn 20? For me, I can see arguements both ways. I think that most of the games have been run with 4000 BC = Turn 1 with people playing 20 turns ending when it says 'Press Enter for end of Turn' @ Turn 21. If 4000 BC = Turn 0, then we could finish @ Turn 20.

For your information, the in-game code has 4000 BC as Turn 0.

ChrTh · Apr 30, 2006

Definitely Turn 0. That's the way it's programmed in terms of when the years transition. People who call 4000 BC turn 1 are just plain silly.

AlanH · Apr 30, 2006

ruff_hi said:
For your information, the in-game code has 4000 BC as Turn 0.

Then why use any other convention?

GreyFox · May 1, 2006

Isn't it easier to start at turn x0, and end at turn y0? (where y=x+1)? It is definitely more logically that way, except for the first player, by convention turn 0 should already have been played, your actual first turn starts after you press Enter, which is tun 1. Sounds logical.

Rex Tyrannus · May 1, 2006

I checked the 'who cares' option. Is it really such a big deal where SG turnsets begin and end? Eventually, someone plays three turns (see RNGod) and the whole thing gets out of whack anyway.

ChrTh · May 1, 2006

I think the problem is that the autologger starts at turn 1 instead of 0. This causes inattentive players to only play 9 turns instead of 10 (since their Turn 0 is a Turn X1, and they finish on Y0 instead of Y1).

So the answer that ruff_hi is really looking for is this: The Autologger needs fixin'

ruff_hi · May 1, 2006

ChrTh said:
I think the problem is that the autologger starts at turn 1 instead of 0. This causes inattentive players to only play 9 turns instead of 10 (since their Turn 0 is a Turn X1, and they finish on Y0 instead of Y1).

So the answer that ruff_hi is really looking for is this: The Autologger needs fixin'

NO - I am looking for concensus so that I CAN FIX THE AUTOLOGGER! I have a mod that includes a v1.61 complient autologger and I wanted to get feedback on 4000=0 or 4000=1. I could include it as an option in the ini file but that would cause mass confusion if people had a different turn counting system (actually, probably should use that for the chaos game).

Rex Tyrannus · May 1, 2006

For sake of consensus: it makes the most logical sense for 4000BC to be turn 1. It's a complete turn. Move a warrior/scout. Move/settle the settler. Press enter. It'd only be turn 0 if the Press enter part came first.

That said, the game itself counts 4000BC as turn 0, if I can understand such things. I'm not sure why, though.

If I had a vote, it'd be to make it turn 0 to coincide with the game (and what people are already used to).

Edit: Incidentally, Ruff. Thanks for fixing the autologger. I know I promised to do something along those lines, but I just got flattened by RL. Good job.

ruff_hi · May 1, 2006

rex_tyranus said:
If I had a vote, it'd be to make it turn 0 to coincide with the game (and what people are already used to).

Edit: Incidentally, Ruff. Thanks for fixing the autologger. I know I promised to do something along those lines, but I just got flattened by RL. Good job.

... if i had a vote ... - um, you do, this is a poll thread. Oh, I see you wasted your vote on [fill in politicion of your choise].

And thanks for the thanks.

ChrTh · May 1, 2006

My theory: The reason why the game considers 4000 BC turn 0 is because all of the "growth" functions (hammers, culture, research) happen during the interturn; so your first applied culture etc. doesn't happen until turn 1.

EDIT: So, for example, if you choose to research BW first and it says 5 turns, then that means it'll be done on Turn 5. Otherwise, it'd be done on Turn 6, and that'd just confuse people.

ruff_hi · May 1, 2006

Alternatively, the in-game turn counter is actually counting how many times you have hit enter to end the turn. When the game starts (to confusing to say turn 1), you haven't hit enter at all and so the count is zero!

Sullla · May 1, 2006

4000BC is turn 0. End of story. It's right in the game code.

The solution to your problem is to stop using the auto-logger so much, which has sucked the life out of more Succession Games than I can count.

ruff_hi · May 1, 2006

Sullla said:
4000BC is turn 0. End of story. It's right in the game code.

The solution to your problem is to stop using the auto-logger so much, which has sucked the life out of more Succession Games than I can count.

I must admit that my reports from my first few SGs where difficult to put together as I didn't keep good notes. After that, I installed the autologger and then my reports were just that with a few comments thrown in. Now, the autologger gets attached as a spoiler but the report concentrates on the implications of what happens and what I am trying to do about it. I have also noticed other people that started playing SGs heading in the same direction.

So, for me - the autologger has just replaced the pen and paper routine. It also helps me count to 10 (or 20) so I know when to stop

.

Bede · May 1, 2006

The SG convention (5,000 posts ago for this old monk) has always been 4000BC=turn0 and it does match the in game turn counter.

@Sulla, you are absolutely correct, but the old turn log style of reporting BA (before autologger) was just as bad. I use it because I can capture data that otherwise gets lost in the excitement of battle which I may need to convert into information when I edit the log into a turnset report.

Rex Tyrannus · May 1, 2006

Sulla,

I totally agree that the autolog. Ever since my autologger broke, my reports have been much more human and (hopefully) entertaining.

Out of curiosity, why is it an "end of story" regarding turn 0? I'd like to understand your rationale. Is it simply a tradition? Is it for the reasons ChrTh stated above? Something else?

I'm asuming you were part of a discussion or two somewhere along the development cycle that dealt with turn numbers and timelines. Did this come up?

GreyFox · May 1, 2006

4000BC is not a complete turn. For one, you can't research anything.

Although I agree that the autlogger can lead to dry reporting, but I disagree with your summarily judgement of the autologger, Sullla. Its just a tool. A bad-style reporter would give as bad a report with or without autlogger. As the old chinese saying goes: water can carry a boat, but it can also sink a boat. All depends on the skill of the helmsman.

-

Sirian · May 2, 2006

Good report writing relies on a player's focus. The autologger has no focus. Players who throw meaningless data at their comrades should be flogged. :cool:

Players who write horrible jokes (and worse, make them bad on purpose) should be flogged as well, but for different reasons. :satan:

- Sirian

ruff_hi · May 2, 2006

So - basically, flogging all around.

Line up, line up ... get your free flogging here. What's that you say - you didn't autolog, must be because of your bad jokes then. No! You don't tell jokes. Well, there you go, you must have a sense of humour. Now, is that 6 lashes or the full 12?

Is 4000 BC Turn #1 or Turn #0?

Is 4000 BC Turn #1 or Turn #0?

Definitely Turn #0

Definitely Turn #1

Actually it is Turn #0 but too late to change now

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