SGOTM 10 - Smurkz

Welcome to your SGOTM 10 team thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game here, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest. I hope you enjoy the game.

The starting saves will become available on the SGOTM Progress and Results page on May 7th, at midnight, server local time.

Thanks again to Gyathaar for coming up with the variant and developing the map.

You are Elizabeth of England, and your mission is simply to destroy the barbarians, who have evolved considerably in this game, having learnt a few tricks from their cousins in Civ4. They have advanced weaponry, they can build cities, and they have an uncanny capability to learn new technologies.

All victory conditions are switched on, but the winning team will be the one that achieves the destruction of the barbarian nation earliest.

Here's the start.


Map Parameters
Playable Civ - England
Opponents - Six: Mayans, Byzantines, Dutch, Inca, Sumerians, Barbarians.
World size - Standard
Difficulty - Emperor
Landform - Mystery
Barbarians - Non-standard

The map is handbuilt, and therefore may not have a standard configuration.

Game mods:
The game uses the default rules as defined in the SGOTM Reference Thread, with the following modifications:

- Galleys can never enter ocean tiles.
- There are some unusual advanced/modified Barbarian units.
- The Barbarians have research capabilities, and can build cities and wonders.

The SGOTM Mediterranean resources are included, as you can see from the starting screenshot. If you have played SGOTM 9 then you will be ready. Other players will need to download and unzip this small graphics mod pack. Details are provided in the SGOTM Reference Thread..

Please ensure that you have incuded the line: NoAIPatrol=0 in your conquests.ini text file.

Please visit the following links to ensure that you are adequately prepared, skipping references to PtW or Vanilla versions of Civ3.

The GOTM Reference Thread.
The SGOTM Reference Thread.

Notes:

A. ONLY Conquests version 1.22 (C3C) is supported for this SGOTM. All teams will compete for a single award.

B. All teams must play the sponsored variant - the laurels will be awarded for the fastest destruction of the Barbarian Nation. The wooden spoons will go to the team with the lowest final score.

C. You MUST play from the start file assigned to your team. All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.

Have fun

Checking in. I think we should definately settle in place, first build a warrior. We dont know how rampant these barbarians are, and we dont want to be killed by them very early in the game.

Checking in.

I have no idea what kind of tricks to expect from Gyathaar since this is my 1st SGOTM, but my eye tells me that settling in place is the best option. However, when I play seafaring, I like to start with a curragh. I think it allows one to meet the neighbors quicker than walking.

Checking in from the lone star state of Texas, GMT -5.

While the hill looks like a good place to settle, (good defense, a river for growth, a wheat and some BGs) I think we should send our worker to the game tile due south and see what he finds out. Just in case.

It is my understanding from the signup thread, that the Special Ole Barbarians (SOBs) will be like an AI civ, able to have cities, build wonders, etc. Or, and this thought is scary, could be several versions of the same civ and have several starting places on the map. Six normal AI civs and one barb civ several time, like SQ2: Schizophrenic Shaka.

I am waiting for my copy of C3C to arrive from eBay.

Europe is waking up. Checking in. Welcome new members azzaman333 and McLMan! Hi, CB! Did you get C3C already?

Didn't think of that, but more than one starting location for the barbs is of course quite possible. I don't think they will be too close. That would make early survival a matter of luck, and would knock out too many teams early on. I would start with a curragh and a warrior (or perhaps two) in any order, and use both to scout, perhaps keeping the warrior fairly close. Finding the other civs and the barbs is asap is a good idea IMO.

Our capital can be a 4 turn settler pump at size 5.0-6.0, with a granary, working the city center (+2 fd, +1 sh), irrigated wheat (+2 fd), the chopped+irrigated deer (+1 fd, +1 sh), mined bg (+2 sh), two mined grass or irrigated plains (+1 sh each) at size 5, and one more of those at size 6. We'll need to keep a forest around for the interturn, or mine the hill. Which means three chops available to go into the granary.
Worker moves (I = irrigate, M = mine, R=road, C=chop):
1. MR bg
2. IR wheat
3. CIR deer
4. CIR forest SW of deer.
5. CIR forest NW of deer.
6. IR plains NE of city
Total turns: 10+8+1 (walk)+12+12+12+8 = 63.
If we don't road then that saves 17 turns I think, but loses a lot of commerce. We might think about getting a second worker.

On research: with our double commerce bonus, we should be able to get the republic slingshot. Do we want to try? We're locked into war with the barbs, do we get war weariness from that? If so, then republic may not be ideal, and we can use the slingshot to get mapmaking or so.

Hi team Smurkz,

Checking in! It makes sense IMO, that the barbs start at many locations. Otherwise they might be behind another AI civ from our starting point or so close to us that the game is over very fast (in case we win or also if we get extinct by them). And they should be a real threat to make the game exciting. So I think there are many of them but not to close at the beginning. So the early Curragh would be my choice for production.
We have pottery from the start, so we should consider the very early granary with some four turn chops.

Guess who's the late sleeper...

Good to see that everyone has signed in already! To our new members azzaman333, McLMan and Marc Aurel, a big hearty welcome!

Gee, I realize I have a lot to learn about C3C. When thinking about the early game neither Curraghs or 4-turn chops were on my mind. In any case I agree with what's been said, no reason not to settle on the spot since we can get that 4-turn factory. I think we should consider a very early granary for fast expansion, but I also think we should play with different alternatives.

I'll be back with some more thoughts later tonight (sun is shining... ).

Some administrative stuff. Our team consists of three Europeans, one Australian and two Americans. I'm not going to try to set up a playing roster that takes time zones into account though, since I firmly believe that we'd be better off playing slowly and think ahead. We've done so to good effect in the past two games, and this game shouldn't be a marathon like the previous ones, so I see no reason not to. The different time zones could be a problem for discussions though, but we've managed well in the previous games. I'll just ask all of us to be aware of this and to check the thread also during times when other parts of the world is awake.

Regarding the roster, does anyone have any specific preferences as to the playing order? I generally like to play an early slot since I enjoy the MMing of the early game, but I could really play whenever. A preliminary roster, based (almost ) on sign-in order, could be:

• Niklas
• azzaman333
• McLMan
• CommandoBob
• zyxy
• Marc Aurel

Yell if you want up or down in the list.

Hale and greetings to azzaman333, McLMan and Marc Aurel. Welcome to Team Smurkz.


I've played with azzaman333 way back in Nero04. I remember that McLMan was part of
GK2- The Training Day Experiment. And I know I've seen Marc Aurel lurking around the forums.

My C3C just arrived a few minutes ago but I've got some other tasks to do before I can allow myself to install it.

By way of history, Niklas, zyxy and I were part of Team Smurkz in SGOTM 9. Niklas and zyxy were part of Team Durkz in SGOTM 8, where they took the Golden Laurels. And just to state the obvious, Niklas is team captain.

The roster is perfect for me! No complaints from my side.

Niklas said:

Regarding the roster, does anyone have any specific preferences as to the playing order? I generally like to play an early slot since I enjoy the MMing of the early game, but I could really play whenever. A preliminary roster, based (almost ) on sign-in order, could be:

• Niklas
• azzaman333
• McLMan
• CommandoBob
• zyxy
• Marc Aurel

Click to expand...

Roster order is fine; zyxy already know what to expect when his turns follow mine.

AlanH said:

Please ensure that you have incuded the line: NoAIPatrol=0 in your conquests.ini text file.

Click to expand...

I know that the above change is important and just wanted to make sure everybody saw it, since it hides in the first post.

AlanH said:

Galleys can never enter ocean tiles.

Click to expand...

That's odd. Either a lot of ocean or the SOBs have been protected to prevent a suicide galley from discovering their home. Does this also apply to curraghs?

Legacy Issue
In SGOTM 9 I found it helpful and informative to post pre-turn strategy plans which allowed the other players to review the plans and offer advice and options. I would at least like to consider doing that in this SGOTM. Perhaps not on the first 20 or 30 turns, but soon after that.

CommandoBob said:

By way of history, Niklas, zyxy and I were part of Team Smurkz in SGOTM 9. Niklas and zyxy were part of Team Durkz in SGOTM 8, where they took the Golden Laurels.

Click to expand...

Actually, me and zyxy were part of Team Durkz in SGOTM 7 too, where we got a solid 2nd place (in the PtW category, with two participants)

Good spot about the NoAIPatrol=0, I missed that (though I had it fixed already). On a similar note, I'm not sure if our SGOTM fixes for PTW will work for C3C as well, we should check that.

I think that the ocean travel restriction is set for galleys only. The reason being that they want it to be ok for us to find out where the barbarians are hiding, but we can't send troops there until they've had a chance to get up in tech to those more fun units hinted about (I would think the 'uncanny' research they have means they will know anything that anyone else knows).

Regarding the pre-turn strategy posts, I too found them useful, so I second CB's request. They don't need to be very detailed, in particular not in the early game. I'll be sure to post some strategies for the first turnset (once we've decided what to do).

I started playing with them spread sheets but I never got far today, to much other stuff happening. I'll post a few start suggestions tomorrow and we can discuss pros and cons. As always I encourage all of you to post spread sheets, though for some reason there never seems to be any takers . If you want to use the spread sheet I'm using, go look for a post from Offa in the sign-up thread and follow the link in his sig (it's an excel file so I can't attach it to this post).

Hi Marc Aurel! I hope you enjoy the smurkzperience! And good to see Niklas didn't sleep the whole weekend .

The roster looks good to me.

CommandoBob said:

Roster order is fine; zyxy already know what to expect when his turns follow mine.

Click to expand...

Yup, a crisp and clean empire, ready to take over the world with an army of horsemen .

I know that the above change is important and just wanted to make sure everybody saw it, since it hides in the first post.

Click to expand...

Good catches on both cases. The AIpatrol setting means the barbs (the white ones) will move about.

Legacy Issue
In SGOTM 9 I found it helpful and informative to post pre-turn strategy plans which allowed the other players to review the plans and offer advice and options. I would at least like to consider doing that in this SGOTM. Perhaps not on the first 20 or 30 turns, but soon after that.

Click to expand...

I think this makes sense. I would prefer to move a little quicker than in SGOTM 9, but I would like to see some discussion before every turnset to make sure we are all on the same track. Writing plans is a good way to focus the discussion I think.

-------------------------

The save is in. We are at war with Dr Evil of the Barbarian Nation (huh, it's a nation?). There's no civilopedia page on either Dr Evil or his "Nation". According to the F3 guy we are weak compared to them. The F4 advisor doesn't know about their military, and his envoys to Dr Evil never return (will this change?). He has something else to add:


Since when do barbarians know something about culture? This will not do! Lizzy hasn't had her milkbath yet, and already she gets these rather displeasing reports. It will be up to our first player to do something about that, on the double!
Fortunately there is better news:


The victory screen shows that the barbarians have the top culture city (Barbarian Stronghold), and have 100% of the worlds population. Demographics show that they have just one city atm.

I found the following barbarian units in the civilopedia.

• Barbarian guard: an oversized cannon modestly prices at 20 shields, with attack 0, defense 8, movement 1, bombard 9, 3 shots, and range 3. It requires no advances, and no resources! In strength this unit comes between cannon and arty bombardment-wise, and between rifleman and infantry defensively.
• Pirate ship: costs 40 shields, attack 1, defense 2, movement 9, bombard 3, 1 shot, range 1, transports 1. It requires astronomy but no resources. The high movement value reflects the differential naval movement mod; by comparison, frigates move 10. Apparently it can travel through ocean (?), and perhaps it can enslave (it seems the pedia text was not edited very well.)

They probably have access to all normal units as well. The barbarian guard will be a tough cookie until we get cavalry - and even then. This strongly suggests the barbs will be on an island by themselves, unreachable until astronomy. The easiest way to defend against barbarian landings will be to sink their relatively expensive ships, that can be taken out with ease by the Man-of-War or with some losses even by galleys.

When we take the fight to them, the guard unit is tailored to fit the usual AI play style - defend with outrageous numbers. The bombard function means that it is a dangerous unit in stacks, and we'll need many attackers to take a barb city. Probably huge arty stacks are the way to go - it will be slow and cumbersome, and I don't like it, but what else? Wait for tanks is another option. If we can get some armies, then cavalry armies might do the trick.

I am somewhat puzzled by the astro requirement for the barb ships. They will be at war wit everyone, so their research will stink, unless they get some huge bonusses, like half a dozen settlers or a big research lead.

Woohoo, the game is on! Consider this a tentative "got it", which will be real unless someone else really wants to go first.

zyxy, nice analysis!
I wouldn't be too worried about the cultural stuff though, IIRC they will be said to be disdainful unless we have a substantial lead over them. My guess is that they are at 0, like we are, having just settled their Stronghold.
Regarding their research, the first post claims that they have an "uncanny" ability for that, so my guess is that they have some extra tricks up their sleeves. Perhaps they will get any tech that any other civ has? Or two others, like if they had a permanent never-obsolete Great Library?

Those guard units are really nasty, with three shots per turn at range three and bombard 9, you don't want to be close. Add to that the fact that they are really cheap and you realize it will take us a long while before we can even think about attacking them. The pirate ships don't seem all that dangerous though, and they only have room for one unit, so I wouldn't worry too much about landings. Not giving it until Astronomy is probably so that they can't land any of their guards in our lands during the AA, that would be quite devastating...

With just the one Stronghold, I wouldn't worry too much about barbies close by our starting location. We have some really good early production with the game, so we could chance on the VEG (Very Early Granary). Rough calculations give that we could have it in 16 with a chop if we build it right away, could be worth it. What do you think?

I'll be back with some spread sheets later today.

Niklas said:

zyxy, nice analysis!
I wouldn't be too worried about the cultural stuff though, IIRC they will be said to be disdainful unless we have a substantial lead over them. My guess is that they are at 0, like we are, having just settled their Stronghold.
Regarding their research, the first post claims that they have an "uncanny" ability for that, so my guess is that they have some extra tricks up their sleeves. Perhaps they will get any tech that any other civ has? Or two others, like if they had a permanent never-obsolete Great Library?

Click to expand...

Thanks. You're probably right about the culture, I wasn't serious about it anyway.

With just the one Stronghold, I wouldn't worry too much about barbies close by our starting location. We have some really good early production with the game, so we could chance on the VEG (Very Early Granary). Rough calculations give that we could have it in 16 with a chop if we build it right away, could be worth it. What do you think?

I'll be back with some spread sheets later today.

Click to expand...

The barbs might have some settlers as well, but I agree that we probably don't have to worry about them too soon. Are there ordinary (white) barbs? The setup information isn't fully clear on that.

It is perhaps good to note that we could run the settler factory 1 size smaller if we settle 1 tile NE. It doesn't really save on worker turns, as we would have to irrigate towards the deer, but would save on lux tax.

The early granary sounds good to me. Sixteen turns is not very long. Whether we push out a warrior and/or curragh first might depend on the timing of the granary compared to growth.

I like your analysis zyxy. I think you're right on track about the barbs being on another continent. I believe this game will mirror Civ IV in at least one other way than advertised. Map type. I wouldn't be surprised if this world turned out to be just like a Civ IV 'Terra' world. We'll have to slug it out on our Pangea-like continent for resources with the rest of the AI's, then launch an amphibious invasion on the "undiscovered" continent, which is always chock full of advanced barb cities.

I read somewhere (Maintenance theread maybe?) that there ARE the traditional white barbs. (God bless 'em )

A couple of things I've discovered from the save.
Barbarian Nation's ...
...traits - Militaristic, Seafaring
...culture group - European
...Unique Unit - Pirate Ship (as if the Barbarian guard isn't unique enough)
...Starting Technologies - Barbarian Tech ???, and The Wheel.
...Favorite Government - Barbarism
...Shunned Government - Democracy

What is Barbarian Tech? My guess would be ability to learn any technology that is known by at least one other Civ.

@azzaman333, McLMan and Marc Aurel : Guys, just to let you know, we are a 'chatty' group. Last time I checked on SGOTM 9, we were averaging about 3 posts per game turn (not turnset, but turn). I know that Niklas and zyxy are better players than I am, but I never found them to be distant nor elitest. They do not suffer from the disease of 'Not Invented Here'. And they are quite willing to explain, in detail, the whys of what they do.

So if you have an idea, a comment on something, or a question, please post it.

Time to be the Inquisitive Idiot

Coming from Vanilla and PTW I know that there are differences in C3C. These are the things I know to be different:

1. New civ traits; England in PTW has different traits from C3C.
2. Ring City Placement is not a factor in C3C.
3. Four new wonders: Statue of Zeus, the Mausoleum of Mausollos, the Temple of Artemis and Knights Templar.
4. Something called the 'Republic Slingshot'.
5. A bonus tech for the first civ to learn Philosophy (I think).
6. Some unit called a 'curragh' that is common to all civs (I think).
7. Scientific Great Leaders.
8. Industrious workers have been slowed down; now work 1.5X faster than normal workers, not 2X faster.

These are things I found different when I have read the SG logs, so this list may not be complete.

Since our strategy is still undeveloped, I don't know how these differences will affect our strategy. But they could.

And this list is just a guide/reminder of what is different. If I write something down it helps me to remember it.

EDIT:
Bamspeedy has compiled a list of changes that are 'Not A Bug' >>HERE<<.

Thanks for the list CB. The only Civ III I've been playing for a short while now has been some Vanilla SG's. I'll need to refresh myself of the C3C differences.

You do get a bonus tech from Philosophy. And the 'Republic Slingshot' takes advantage of that. It's pretty simple. You just research (in order): Alphabet, Writing, Code of Laws, and then Philosopy. If you're the 1st to discover Philosophy you can pick Republic as your free tech. The advantage is in getting the commerce bonus of Republic really fast.

Probably the biggest change in C3C is how strong Republic is. It has unit support in this version, making it THE government to be in, bar none. Monarchy is the way to go in an Always War game, but in a standard, no variant, game I like to get to Republic soon, & stay there.

For THIS game I don't know which government would be best. I don't think we should try for the slingshot because Republic may just not work down the line. If the landmass and starting locations are like I suspect, I think we need to find out where the Horses & Iron are sooner, rather than later. And by that time we might have a better idea on which government to head for.

I've played with my spread sheets, but it's not a nice and simple start, the numbers won't add up nicely. At long last I have some scenarios that I think would make strong starts.

The first is the Farmer's Gambit, going straight for a VEG for the earliest possible settler pump:

It sacrifices some early growth by working the game and bg instead of the then available wheat at size two, but the end result is that we get the granary before the growth to size three and gain both shields and food from it.
The trickiest part here was to time the chop so that the shields are not wasted. The only way to get the chop to go to the granary build is to go chop before mining the bg, but that would make us lose more shields in the long run, and would give the granary on the same turn as in the scenario above. By not mining the wheat right away we can have the chop go to a curragh after the granary. Note that either of the curraghs marked above could be a warrior instead, with a slight waste of shields but no effect on the turns.

The second scenario starts out with a curragh and a warrior before the granary for Exploration Galore:

Compared to the above scenario we let the chop go to the granary instead, still skipping the road on the wheat. We delay growth to size 4 until the granary is built. The effect is that the worker comes online a turn later, the first and second settlers are likewise delayed by one turn, and every settler thereafter by two turns. The gain here is of course the early curragh and warrior, 16 turns faster for the curragh and 11 for the warrior. The commerce effects of the two are comparable, the first slightly stronger, but the second could potentially generate more research if we use the warrior as a MP early on.

What will it be? Farmer's Gambit, or Exploration Galore?
I tend to lean towards the latter, the two turns lost on the pump could easily be made up by meeting the neighbors faster, and scouting out good places to settle future towns.

I'll be going on a conference tomorrow, will play tomorrow night once I get home, approximately 24 hours from now.