The Emperor Masters' Challenge

Round6: 95AD - 320AD

A long time ago, in a land far far away...

[orchestra strikes up]

The war continues. Malinese forces converge on the city of Beshebalik while desperate Mongolian raiders strike deep into Mali in the hopes of disrupting its war machine. The enigmatic French have yet to send a single troop to help their beseiged ally. Things are looking dark for the Khan.

In Mali, meanwhile, the people chaffed under the war economy, often worked to death to produce more weapons for the front. Mongolian raiders frighten the populace and cut off the supply of spices. As each day passes, the Malinese treasury is being drained. It won't be long before the empire implodes and all the gains of the war are nullified...

Our army marched in the forests towards Beshebalik, braving and defeating a catapult attack.



The Mongolian city was heavily fortified with archers and Keshiks. On the following turn, our army was attacked by a few Keshiks, but the spears stood their ground.



When the catapults have worn down Beshebalik's defence to 0, a few more Keshiks attacked the stack. The spears still held their ground. On the next turn, at the cost of all but one of the catapults...



Having been utterly defeated, Kublai was even more amenable to peace talks.



Despite what the screenshot seems to show, he wasn't going to accept such an outrageous deal. He had offered Monotheism and the rest, and I changed it to Calendar to see how much he was willing to pay. I gradually whittled the deal down to Calendar and 150 gold, and he finally accepted. Why did I change my mind about Calendar? Mainly because I realised the obelisks have served their purpose by expanding the borders of Ning-Hsia and Turfan. Also, in the process of capturing Beshebalik, a few Keshiks managed to pillage the spice plantation near Turfan (lost one spear at good odds, but the raiders were taken care of after that). With some whip hang over still plaguing us, we could use the spice back online.

I realised I made a mistake, though. I forgot that New Sarai was building an obelisk. I guess my mistake was in starting the build in the first place. There goes some hammers

About two turns later, the Khan became a relatively good neighbour again:



IMO that was the best deal I could get. I couldn't think of why I'd need Monotheism anytime soon. Literature would allow me to start on Heroic Epic in the near future, and it's significantly more expensive beaker-wise than the former tech. It wasn't possible to get both at the same time without paying some gold, which I wasn't willing to do for reasons that I am going to elaborate on now.

We are going bankrupt. With the addition of Beshebalik, we are paying way more upkeep than our income at 0% research, even with the gold mines at Timbuktu and one mature cottage in Djenne. The gold that we have now can be used to research CoL, which will eventually help us with this problem. However,



Yes, Napoleon wouldn't sign peace unless we give the city to him. I am tempted to, given the upkeep we are paying and the fact that we are in no position to invade him yet. Besides, the point of capturing Beshebalik was to create a corridor to France. Giving it to Napoleon would still maintain the corridor. However, giving Beshebalik to our enemy would only strengthen him, and we are beginning to fall behind in terms of power.



What should we do now? Keep Beshebalik and wait until Napoleon is tired of fighting a phoney war, or give Beshebalik away and build up our economy and military to prepare for the invasion of France? If we choose the first option, we would have to sit and wait until we can muster enough force to attack Napoleon or until he wants peace, and that might take a long time, during which we would be impoverished. If we choose the second, we may be causing the power gap to widen, and when we finally attack the odds may already be greatly against us.

Here's a look at our empire at this point:



Timbuktu and Djenne are still suffering from some whip-unhappiness. The spice plantation should help with that when it's back up. Timbuktu is building a third and badly needed worker right now, while I let Djenne continue slowly on the spearmen it was building (I think started at the time when Keshiks were still appearing out of nowhere to pillage). I put a scientist in Djenne again to slow down its growth and to contribute to creating the GS that is taking a long time to be born.



Kumbi Saleh is building a fishing boat to work the fish, in anticipation of more whipping soon, while New Sarai started on a workboat (which I am planning to whip) for its fish too. I thought of letting Ning-Hsia slowly build Skirmishers after the barracks to shore up defenses until a worker can get round to making the city more productive.

This game is going to be really difficult. Just take a look at these:





We are looking like a real poor African nation. Napoleon is running away and will eventually destroy us by pure economics. I can't think of anything we could do right now to prevent that, and I am not feeling optimistic. Any advice?

Trade it away, and next time, pillage everything!

Aelf,

I would definately say that the city of beshbalik is too far away to maintain at current economic strength. leaves you only a couple of good options

Try to give back beshbalik to kubla in exchange for techs and gold maybe gpt?? if he'll strike a deal it should improve relations with him.

you could also trade it for old sarai, save you the effort of conquering it later

either way napoleon doesnt end up with it.. and may be willing to strike a peace treaty straight across. if not atleast you dont have to worry about mongolia for a little while, and can be defensive while you regroup and build back up your economy.

NaZ

I wouldnt give away the city. It's a good spot with floodplains. Cottage rightaway and it will pay for itself. Whip some of it's unhappy people for defence or culture/hapiness buildings.

How strong is Nappy (not only judging his powerbar). Are there any army's marching towards your city's? What kind of units does he have? Are you prepared for an attack, and are you in shape to take a city? (when you takea city, he prob want peace. You can even give it back to him to smoothen the deal. Sounds crazy, but sometimes you're desperate...

The point is, if you can defend yourself well enough against a invasion, why should want to end the war. Pillage, or even better, raze for coin! Dont let him walk away before its to late. You need to fund your army pillaging while rushing courthouses, before its to late.

I think btw, you over-whipped, having such a small pop., you arent able to work cottages (3 commerce each from the start!).

A played a shadow game, and it went just like this. I attacked Khan and Napy declared war on me, but didnt do much. When i made peace with Khan having captured exactly the same city's he went after me. The only difference is I attacked much earlier with axes. I didnt even had swords when napy attacked. But i didnt need them to defend myself. Then i stroke back.

The insight this gives me, is to point out how important early war is. Even when his city's are on hills.

Edit: Btw, why dont you switch to a religion? Budhisme for example? If you are at war with both, I cant see a good reason why you shouldn't.

There may have been an alternate path besides the early war. You had a lot of research power from the start. It may have been possible to leverage founding an early religion, then convert either Kublai or Napoleon then had one of them as an ally instead of as an enemy.

Strange suggestion considering your sig.

voek said:

Strange suggestion considering your sig.

Click to expand...

War isn't only about building military and deciding where to attack first. You have to use whatever assets/resources you can to gain the advantage. In civ4, a convert to your faith can be a stronger asset than a stack of axemen.

You're right, it looks like Napoleon is running away with the game. I think you have to address that, and making peace is only going to help him.

Look upon it as an opportunity to seriously harm your greatest opponent. He's threatening to bury you economically? Fine, ruin his economy. Slash, pillage, and burn everything in France, including roads. I'd use several mini-stacks with a mix of units that should be able to counter whatever he tries to throw at them. The gold from pillaging should keep you afloat while you build your economy--markets, courthouses, and cottages, my friend.

Once there's nothing left to pillage, if Nappy's still recalcitrant, fortify some units on forested hills in the second ring of his cities' fat crosses so he can't rebuild. He'll go crazy trying to dislodge them.

By then, hopefully you'll have your own economy back on track, while his will be in ruins. You don't even have to take a single French city, though feel free to take one (and raze it, you can't afford to keep any) if the opportunity arises.

Can you whip a courthouse in Beshbalik? I like Sisutil's idea of a pillaging camapign against Napoleon.

Yeah. I'd go for the pillaging rampage to weaken Napoleon too. He may have a enough units for counter attacking so you will have to use caution.

where have i heard that before sis? oh yes, the list of civ tips . since you're at war, i'd probably try and knock out all of his happiness resources. whenever i have to wage a war of attrition thats what i tend to do first. what you could do is send one small stack towards orleans to knock out his corn and iron and then send it further south (or stay to prevent future rehook up of iron). and send another stack down his eastern side knocking out his marble and golds and just keep movin it south.this seems like the best way to go about it

Pillaging seems like a good idea, but I'm not sure we can support an extensive expedition. Also, from what I've seen of Napoleon's lands before the war, much of it isn't developed yet. It's unlikely he has mature cottages worth pillaging.

Checking the F9 screen reveals that he doesn't have the Buddhist shrine. One of his major source of income must the the gold mines in Orleans. I don't see any other sources of gold/silver/gems. The good news is, Orleans, which also the Buddhist holy city, is within striking distance. And if anything is shown by Napoleon's lack of action, I think it's his lack of troops. I vote for mounting a punitive expedition to capture Orleans.

I would keep Beshebalik because it can more than pay for itself, with the gold and silk. It's also an excellent city spot, if you look at it. Orleans, though, is too far and I could give it back to Napoleon once he agrees to pay for peace. Even better, I could give it to Kublai if he would accept it. We could turn the Khan into an ally, strengthening him at the same time, to present a combined threat to Napoleon and nerf his power. Divide and conquer.

Aelf,

if you can support the cost of maintaining belshabik then by all means please do an expedition to capture orleans would be a fantastic idea, hopefully the attack would cause napoleon to request a treaty.. maybe even give you a tech?? worth a shot

best of luck

NaZ

Pillaging his improvements will slow him down. Raze a city might even work. You have to take Napolean down a peg before he screws you over...

You should be able to support the pillagers by pillaging. Pick the right resources and it can be very lucrative. More importantly, as Gnarfflinger said, it will drag Nappy down into the economic muck in which you're currently wallowing. Hey, misery loves company, right?

I'd use a three-unit stack of 1 Axe to ward off melee units, a Spear to handle mounted units, and a chariot to move and pillage on the same turn. Send several of these stacks into his territory and you'll have him weeping in his Beaujolais in no time. Some of them will die, but they'll do some damage first.

ok, so you can't whip a courthouse yet;whipping anything should reduce distance maintenance a bit. What about pillaging gold and marble around Orleans before capturing it and giving it to KK?
Longer term would Beshbalik be a good site for FP?

I can't figure out why you're so worried about your economy. I hope this doesn't spoil anything, but I played the save for about 4 turns, reaching Code of Law, and could be researching at 50% with a small profit (no, I didn't switch to Caste System either). 50% tells me: "plenty of room for more warring". Don't even think about gifting Beshbalik to anyone. It'll be your second best commerce city, behind Timbuktu, as soon as it comes out of resistance (and whips off some of the excess population). Silk and a gold mine = lots of cash.

You are definitely behind Napoleon, though. So, you'll have to start playing a focused efficient game. There won't be a lot room for logistical or tactical mishaps. Definitely put down the whip in your core cities for a good long while. With the upcoming influx of happines, I know you'll be tempted to start whipping Timbuktu some more. Resist that urge; you need the population to grow and start making you more money. Generally, for every decision you make, you need to have a clear purpose in mind. The spear(s) being constructed no longer serve a purpose. Ditch them. Any longterm war against Napoleon is going to involve LOTS of catapults, so when in doubt build more cats (don't need a barracks before building them either).

Pillaging Napoleon's gold mines is a no-brainer. Pillaging much anything else could be a challenge. Chariots aren't going to be a realistic option, as it would take quite a bit of time to bring horses online and then construct the chariots. There are more important things to be done in the meantime. Hopefully you can park a couple of well-promoted axemen or something on a forested hill somewhere and kill a couple of Napoleon's units. Peace could become an option then, if you decide to take it. Personally, though, until you start seeing war weariness, peace doesn't seem like a very high priority. There's no point in starting a pillaging campaign looking for a source of income, though. You've got enough at home, believe it or not. Pillage with the goal of deprivation. Hit resources, and try to stick to easily defensible tiles.

It's critical to find out what Napoleon's army is comprised of. Pillaging the gold will give you sight into Orleans. Also, you could get an open borders agreement with Khan, and go down to spy on Paris. If he's all archers, swordsmen are the order of the day. If he's got lots of axe's, then you've got to go with either axes or possibly horse archers (acquire HBR from Khan for Code of Law, maybe). It would be nice to be able to get up to Crossbows. Then you could attack with an army full of Catapults, Xbows, and a few spears. But, alas, machinery is out of the picture for a LONG time. By that time you'd be facing longbows.

You may want to consider picking up Monarchy and Monotheism (maybe through trade). It would be nice to start putting the spiritual trait to use. Caste system will help some there, but you'll need to start synchronizing your use of slavery in all your cities. Though, you really don't have many cities that can afford to run specialists at the moment, so that's a low priority. I'm not even sure courthouses are all that useful right now and I'm questioning the importance of picking up CoL when you did. I think I would have chosen Metal Casting instead, forges are awfully nice. A bit too late to change that now, though...

malekithe, you posted a bit too late. I already played a round before you did, only I had no time to post the updates. But some of the things you mentioned were done. About CoL, I thought I'd need some courthouses up pretty soon and no one else suggested otherwise at that time. Oh, well.

Thanks for the advice, guys. Update coming up.

Round7: 320AD - 455AD

The Seven Hundred Years' War (235BC-455AD): A long war fought between the three empires of the Eastern continent, Mali, Mongolia and France, which ended with Malinese dominance of eastern politics. The war began when a Mongolian emperor declared war on the empire of Mali, seeking land and plunder. France joined in on the side of the Mongolians a century later.

Initially, the war comprised of little more than skirmishes in Malinese territory with Mongolian raiders. In the first century BC, however, a new Malinese chief decided to end Mongolian pillaging by sending a punitive strike force into Mongolian lands. This army went on to capture all of the northern Mongolian territories except for Old Sarai. Beshebalik, the base from which Mongolian raids were launched, finally fell to the Malinese in 275AD. With the loss of Beshebalik and its rich environs, the Mongolians were forced to sue for peace, paying a large amount of gold in the process.

Although the French and the Malinese had remained hostile while the war was being fought in Mongolia, the former never sent help to their allies. Scholars agree that the French never intended to fight the Malinese themselves. However, after the defeat of Mongolia, they refused to pay gold to Mali for peace. In response, a Malinese army marched out of Beshebalik and into the vast empire of France.

A short round this time, and a short wait. I was anxious to see if our situation could be improved, so I couldn't wait a full day to play again. And I had a plan.

First, I decided to keep Beshebalik as it could more than pay for itself with the gold and silk. Once it was out of revolt, I whipped 3 pop for a Buddhist temple to help with culture and happiness. Couldn't wait to whip as the city was starving. Then I gathered my forces and sent them at Orleans.



Orleans was the Buddhist holy city, and although it didn't have the shrine, it had two gold mines, which probably accounted for much of France's wealth, considering from what I saw Napoleon wasn't busy cottage spamming. Best of all, it was within striking distance from Beshebalik.

An axeman in our stack defended against and defeated the French axeman. Orleans was only defended by an archer and axe pair, and it fell at the cost of 0 units (both CR catapults withdrew!).



So much for Napoleon's power rating. I wonder where he's storing up his army. Probably it was just spread too thin over his vast empire.

Anyway, after the fall of Orleans, I sent an axe and a spear to pillage the gold mine that was still within Napoleon's borders to deprive him of a happiness resource. Then I sued for peace.



He wasn't willing to pay any tech, but the gold was good enough to testify to his utter defeat at the moment.

Then I did what I had planned to do:



I didn't bother pillaging the other gold and the marble. I think Kublai needs all the help he can get if he is to be credible ally against Napoleon. He is down to 3 cities, after all. And I made a trade with him:



He had refused this earlier, and I didn't like trading CoL away for only Monotheism and a little gold. But after a few turns I thought why not just make the trade. Before doing that, though, I stubbornly gave the other deal a try again, and he strangely agreed now at the price of 30 gold.

Anyway, Kublai had converted to Christianity, as I hoped he would, but in any case Napoleon converted to Taoism after Orleans fell. I converted to Christianity as well, after switching to Hereditary Rule (bless the Spiritual trait here), and our old enemy became a very good neighbour.



Look! Kublai is now willing to declare war on Napoleon. Probably for a price, but that could be arranged. We could even bribe him as soon as we finish researching Metal Casting, which I picked as a choice for the fact that none of our two neighbours had it and for forges (same thinking as you. malekithe, although a bit late).

The rest of the empire had started on economic builds, except for Timbuktu (finishing up on a catapult), Ning-Hsia (finishing up the Skirmisher meant for Beshebalik) and Djenne (building a galley needed to destroy that irritating barb galley). The redundant spears started back in the days of the Keshik can actually serve a purpose now that we are running HR.

Our power graph now:



Napoleon has climbed down a few steps with the loss of Orleans (I think military power is not the major contributor to his overall power rating) and we're still above Kublai.

The economic outlook is even better:



Looks like the gold mines are all up to this point in this game. The dramatic increase in our GNP is probably due to the gold mine in Beshebalik coming online and growth allowing us to work gold and other high commerce tiles in the rest of the empire.

It's a happy picture for now, but what's next? I think we should build up our economy. A few courthouses and a market at Timbuktu would be good. And I think we need to build another worker asap (in which city, though?). Djenne has a few cottages to work, so I'm thinking of transferring the job of generating GS to New Sarai (also high food) once the first GS is born.

The alternative would be to resume war once the peace with Napoleon expires, enlisting Kublai on our side with MC. A few more catapults and units (which have to be built instead of economic builds) should be enough to allow us to capture a few French cities (eg. the wine city and Rheims). However, there's upkeep to take into account. And if there's a spot that I want to grab next, it's this:



We could probably build a settler and send it there. Good site, with horses, spice and silk. But a lot of jungle probably means we need to dedicate a worker for that city, and there's not much food for growth there.

Tech-wise, what should we research after MC? This is the tech screen:



Machinery? The two of them might be heading for Feudalism so we might need to tech to maces soon.

I hope that was a good round.

now this is why i'm following this thread!! its very helpful to my game to see the strategic decisions of others and how they compare to ones I would have made in the same situation.

good job converting the mongols to an ally and suing for peace. definately agree on the massing of cats and pushing towards macemen.. if you can get them online before the next war with napoleon it shouldnt be too much trouble.

definately take that jungle spot, it may not look like much now but jungle can always be cleared and its in a good location for bonus resources.

very much so looking forward to watching the campaign against napoleon. best of luck

NaZ