The Emperor Masters' Challenge 2 (on Warlords)

Well I in no means ment to be critical in a negative way, so my apologies if it was taken as such. but definately unexpected way to finish out the game. was looking forward to either a holy war across the other continent or a rush to leave the planet. hopefully aelf will pull off one of the two in his "alternate win" scenario.

NaZ
 
NaZdReG said:
Well I in no means ment to be critical in a negative way, so my apologies if it was taken as such.

No worries. I didn't think you were being critical. It's just a difference of opinion.

Anyway, I've finished playing. But it's late over here, so I'm going to have to post the update tomorrow. Stay tuned.
 
Sorry, I think it was me that brought up "backdoor diplomacy" first.

It was a light-hearted play on the fact that diplomacy wins can often be used as "backdoor domination" and that aelf hadn't intended a diplomatic victory in this scenario rather than a critique of the outcome.

Another great thread - to go with the first EMC one. I think one of the main things I've learned from them are that given the right approach and application, seemingly losing situations can be turned around. Looking forward to the outcome of the space race.

:)
 
patagonia said:
...given the right approach and application, seemingly losing situations can be turned around....

I could not agree more. Besides being very interesting and entertaining to watch, aelf's diplomacy mastery has shown me a new way to play the game.

I do not know if it would be possible, but I would love to see a multiplayer version of this type of thread. Maybe Dr. Jiggle and aelf and Sisiutil could play against each other in an email game, with postings and commentary...

The audience would have to be careful to not give away spoilers, but people seem to be good about not doing it now.....
 
yeah sistuil and aelf should play a game against eachother

what would it be called The All Leader emperor Master Challenge? and what would be the diffuculty sistuil is a new monarch player and aelf plays emperor
 
Congratulations on the victory, though it surprised me as well!

What was more important to see here (for me) is the result from going the religious way. Personally, I still find it a bit of a slowdown. You could be far more effective if you point your effort at other directions. Nevertheless, this thread was very interesting and shows the great power os Sankore + Minaret combination.

What are your thoughts on that?
 
What????? It is over? Just like this? Bummer. I really wanted to see the outdated units of Aelf take on the infantry/artillery of the AI :p

But hey, a win is a win and you can win by diplomacy so good job. I bow my head for a very entertaining thread.
 
Hey Joni said:
Congratulations on the victory, though it surprised me as well!

What was more important to see here (for me) is the result from going the religious way. Personally, I still find it a bit of a slowdown. You could be far more effective if you point your effort at other directions. Nevertheless, this thread was very interesting and shows the great power os Sankore + Minaret combination.

What are your thoughts on that?

I used this combo also in one of my last games. Although I didn't used a 'religious' leader at all (I think it were the Celts). I think it's doesn't require for you to find a religion on your own. Besides the CoL slingshot of GS for Philosophy can still give you a religion, but often it's much easier to 'capture' a religion. Going the religion path cost too much diversion from military and growth. The University of Sankore is almost always a good idea to build and you often can since the AI doesn't priortize paper.

I think it's too bad none of the Egyptians are Organized. The problem I find with Warchariots, they are too good not to expand, causing lots of problems to the economy in the early days.
 
voek said:
I used this combo also in one of my last games. Although I didn't used a 'religious' leader at all (I think it were the Celts). I think it's doesn't require for you to find a religion on your own. Besides the CoL slingshot of GS for Philosophy can still give you a religion, but often it's much easier to 'capture' a religion. Going the religion path cost too much diversion from military and growth. The University of Sankore is almost always a good idea to build and you often can since the AI doesn't priortize paper.

I think it's too bad none of the Egyptians are Organized. The problem I find with Warchariots, they are too good not to expand, causing lots of problems to the economy in the early days.

warchariots are good!
You can just raze a few cities (3/4:p ) to fund expansion.
In my experience, with 3 warchariots, you can raze almost any smallish city. + no need to defend it.
When you have more of those + a few other troops (axes vs spears!), you can go for the 1 or 2 cities you plan to keep.
 
Been reading but not commenting much recently; not having warlords means I can't load the saves and its difficult for me to really follow a game without looking at a save. There's also the minor detail that I'm still quite a way from emperor (though doesn't usually stop me having opinions).
While you've been doing a good job of catching up and generally playing well it does appear that Gandhi lost the game rather than you winning it. You could certainly argue that you put in the groundwork with your diplomacy but it still feels something of an anticlimax.
But any win on emperor imho is a good win. Congratulations!!
 
pigswill said:
While you've been doing a good job of catching up and generally playing well it does appear that Gandhi lost the game rather than you winning it. You could certainly argue that you put in the groundwork with your diplomacy but it still feels something of an anticlimax.
But any win on emperor imho is a good win. Congratulations!!

I guess this is true, but I think that's also why Aelf continues playing to see if he can win (without help of Ghandi). However, it is still a fair obtained victroy in any way you see it.
 
Actually, if there's going to be another Emperor Challenge thread it would probably be played with another variant and at normal speed. I feel that I need to be able to win that kind of challenge before moving on to Immortal. So, if everyone is agreeable, we might see an Immortal Challenge in the future ;)

Well, this game wasn't quite over yet. It had been won (or lost by Gandhi, depending on whether the glass is half empty or half full ;)), but, like I said, this sort of ending isn't going to prove anything. Now, I've played on and reached an alternative conclusion. Update coming up...
 
Final Round: 1878AD - 1925AD

Wait. Don't scroll to the end of the update. Like everything in life, it's the journey and not the end that truly matters. Especially if we lose in the end :p

Just to recall, we were following this research path towards space victory:

Physics -> Biology -> Electricity -> Industrialism -> Railroads -> Combustion -> Flight (traded for Artillery) -> Rocketry -> Plastics -> Radio -> Computers -> Robotics -> Satelites

That would be followed by:

Fission -> Fiber Optics -> Fusion -> Refrigeration -> Genetics -> Environmentalism

Anyway, in the last update it was revealed that we could already win by diplomacy, thanks to Gandhi. However, that doesn't show us the merits of the religion strategy we were pursuing. Achieving a space victory despite the apparent odds would. So I loaded the game on the turn we could choose what to vote for and put Single Currency as the item on the UN agenda instead.

Proceeding from that point...

We completed a rather valuable wonder in our Ironworks city on the very next turn:



Who said that Industrious sucks in the higher difficulties? ;) The coal plants in some of our bigger cities have served us well, but they were giving us a hefty health penalty. And that's without laboratories. Building the Three Gorges' Dam allowed our cities to hit the maximum size they could be with those labs and before supermarkets and recycling centres.

And we made this trade:



Seems like another lopsided trade? Mehmed was clearly getting out-teched so he was no threat, and we could certainly use Communism. Yes, we got the tech quite late, so we started building spies quite late too. You might be worried there, but I think spies really only come into play when all the required techs have been researched and you can afford to save up some cash for massive sabotage work.

Now, some of you might be expecting us to switch to State Property. But we didn't. We ran Mercantilism for the whole game. Why? Because it's huge when combined with Representation (which, in turn, sped up research and allowed our 5 largest cities to grow larger than they could under US). One free specialist for every city, no matter how large, meant at least 3 free beakers each. And - this is something I haven't mentioned - we also had the Sistine Chapel (built by the Incas in the Colossus city) so we were enjoying some free culture too. No wonder the cities Gandhi and Mehmed planted on our continent weren't able to resist even the culture of our newest cities.

Well, we did switch to US for a while:



I thought we'd humour the old guy a little bit. I completely forgot that Gandhi doesn't mind even if you refuse. Well, speeding up the construction of our Apollo Program a little couldn't hurt. And I siezed the opportunity to rush buy a thing or two (can't remember what). We did run into happiness problems in our largest cities, though, so we switched back to Representation when we could.

The happiness issue recurred when, thanks to the UN, we switched from Nationalism (which I had forgotten to switch out of) to Free Speech. But I think trading for Hit Movies and Singles solved it.

At this point our cities were already growing very slowly as there were no more tiles to work and new populations were becoming specialists (had a lot of those around, mainly merchants). We were pretty much reaching the peak since the newer cities didn't have time to contribute much with their growth and development.

Anyway, when we completed the Apollo Program, we were in the midst of building the Space Elevator (which, by the way, requires Satelites in Warlords - I was rather bewildered for a while when I couldn't build it after getting Robotics :blush:). We were also building the SS Docking Bay, which is the most expensive part. I decided the time was ripe for a Golden Age:



Well, how much more can I say about building and more building?

A few interesting things did happen along the way. The first:



Culturally overwhelmed indeed :king:

And then Mehmed went to war with Mao (didn't ask for our help this time, though; I think it was tanks vs cavalry) and the latter sent a large expeditionary stack to capture Mehmed's original city on our continent:



Great work! You'd soon lose that city, Mao.

Then we got our next GP:



Multiple GPP-producing cities might actually be a good idea, contrary to the conventional GP farm concept. We still had one unused prophet. Now, if we got the free GE from Fusion (and it seemed we could), we would be able to start another GA :cool: Is victory really beyond our grasp?

[to be continued in the next post...]
 
aelf said:
Anyway, when we completed the Apollo Program, we were in the midst of building the Space Elevator (which, by the way, requires Satelites in Warlords - I was rather bewildered for a while when I couldn't build it after getting Robotics :blush:).

I had tried to point that out, but I guess I wasn't very explicit about it. As I mentioned, there's a question as to whether to research Robotics first or Satellites first, since you need both. I usually get Robotics first, but I think Satellites might be better in general, since it lets you get started on the thrusters. In your case, however, since you haven't yet completed the Apollo Program, it probably doesn't matter either way. Robotics first gave you the option of upgrading to Mechanized Infantry if the situation got desperate.

So Apollo Program isn't necessary for the Space Elevator? That seems strange, though I guess it's convenient for you.
 
obviously doc, you posted while Aelf is just finishing his own update...
But i think it's not clear.

Aelf, do you mind giving us some dates, like when did you finish apollo program, when did you start the different parts, when did you discover the different techs, when did you start the elevator?

+ do you have labs already?
 
cabert said:
obviously doc, you posted while Aelf is just finishing his own update...

Right.

But i think it's not clear.

Well, he did say, "Anyway, when we completed the Apollo Program, we were in the midst of building the Space Elevator," which sounds to me like it had already been started.
 
[continued from previous post]

Another point of interest:



Yes, Gandhi was finally at war! He was clearly dogpiling Mao. Shame on the pacifist :nono:

Well, back to the business of building, we attained a major achievement in our quest for a space victory:



Ah, the sight of it going up into the infinite sky... Some people would argue that the Space Elevator is only an unnecessary distraction. I believe that in a close - or somewhat close - space race it's important to at least deny it from your rivals. Otherwise, you might not be able to outbuild the one who has it.

Mehmed finally came looking for our aid:



Did he really need it? Well, at any rate, we're not going to be like Gandhi :mischief: And we certainly didn't need to have a large artillery and cavalry stack landing next to a city of ours when we're having such a good time playing builder.

As it turned out, our assitance was not necessary. Mao became Mehmed's vassal shortly after. Saladin was left alone, poor fellow. Oh, there was Huayna too, and the two of them had a defensive pact. Ooo... Scary :p

Anyway, we did get our free GE from Fusion:



Time for another Golden Age:



Victory became increasingly likely. We even out-teched Gandhi:



Do you know why we made that trade? For the money, of course. But what did we need more money for? For our sabotage work, of course. Our spies had been sent over the ocean and had begun round-the-clock sabotage work. It was fun sabotaging production and food tiles (especially looking at Gandhi's cities starve :devil:) with a high rate of success. I avoided guarded strategic resources as they are not worth trying on. Still, all our spies were eventually caught and it was too tedious to send another batch over (we needed transports for another purpose anyway). But they'd done some damage.

We got our next GP, another GE:



We settled him in Thebes, which was building the last expensive spaceship part (and would therefore be the last to be completed). He cut building time by 2 turns, thereby further increasing our chances at victory, if slightly. Who knows, we could end up launching 1 turn before Gandhi because of this.

But before we win - or lose - there's one unfinished business we had to settle:



Now that the defensive pact had been activated, we didn't need to be at war with Saladin to attack Huayna and wipe him off the map.



This is like Operation Desert Storm, only better :D

(Yes, this is what we needed the transports for)

Now that it's done, we can focus on the ultimate question of the game: Can we out-tech Gandhi and win? Did our religion strategy fail to achieve results?



[to be continued in the next post]
 
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