Exercise and recovery.

thetrooper · Oct 31, 2006

Hello!

6 months ago I decided to do something about my mediocre physical state. I bought a mountain bike and started out small - 2 hours a week. Since then I've gradually increased both tempo and hours. I'm doing 8-12 hours a week now out in the Norwegian wilderness. We all know that somewhere during intense exercise you cross the border between aerobic and anaerobic metabolism - you experience muscular pain. My question to you is:

How do you recover fast from this painful state?

Note: refrain from posting tips about pills, dope and whatnot. This thread is about fast natural recovery!

@Moderators: I've posted this in OT. If you think it belongs in Sports Talk, please move it.

El_Machinae · Oct 31, 2006

You're talking muscular fatigue, the pain experienced the next day? Recovery time increases as you age. Slow-burning carbs (for light insulin release) speeds recovery and fish oil (not cod liver oil) reduces inflammation. Post workout stretching is supposed to theoretically help, but I've never noticed a benefit.

thetrooper · Oct 31, 2006

Yes, I'm talking about muscular fatigue. Stretching, in my experience, actually makes it worse. What is this fish oil you speak of (since you said not cod liver oil, I guess that you don't refer to omega-3 fatty acids)?

Ziggy Stardust · Oct 31, 2006

To avoid musclepains, make sure you do warm-up before and cool down after heavy excercise.

thetrooper · Oct 31, 2006

Ziggy: yeah I do warm up (25-30 minutes, 110-120 pulse). Care to elaborate on the cool down part?

Brighteye · Oct 31, 2006

Latest research is that warm-up stretches don't help reduce injury or pain. Afterwards they're supposed to, though I also never bother.

If you want to experience less muscle pain the next day, you should try doing some light exercise in between your heavy bouts. Go for a gruelling ride one day, and a few hours later, or next day, go for a light jog for 20 minutes. These recovery runs should not be hard-core training: they are recovery exercise.

Then you can train again the day after. The recovery runs will help.

Ziggy Stardust · Oct 31, 2006

I'n not talking from experience mind you

The only sports i engage in are Pool and Pro Evolution Soccer

But as i understand it, when you muscles cool down too rapid, it'll also cause pains. So you want to gradually cool them down. In your case that would be slow pedalling for some time.

You might want to await more experienced posters' advice for this one

El_Machinae · Oct 31, 2006

Salmon oil; Omega-3. The cod liver oil contains (I believe) too much vitamin A to be good for you in the doses needed to reduce inflammation. O-3 oils, though, are shown to reduce inflammation.

Mr. Blonde · Oct 31, 2006

In my experience it is best you avoid anaerob phases during your trips entirely, which could be hard if your track includes steep slopes. As suggested it is best you reduce tempo after anaerob phases for several minutes. If you are back home it is almost too late to do anything about it, however some relaxed biking/runnig next day to get some blood into your muscles could help. Or, the other thing is to go to Sauna/ thermal bath after the training and some recovery time.
I had the same problems as you when I started running as I did fast running-stop-fast running-stop,... training exercises which caused even cramps in the night after. It got better with time as I learned to dose my speed according to the slope of the track, which should imo be rather easy for biking.

If you accept these isotonic stuff I think most companies have some product for recovery, I didn´t find a difference. You should take some of these or fruit juice with you for trips over 1 h.

Brighteye · Oct 31, 2006

What about free fatty acids? Wouldn't they increase inflammation? What sort of amounts are you thinking of?

Brighteye · Oct 31, 2006

Oh yes, drinking sugary stuff during or immediately after exercise may improve performance/recovery slightly, but it inhibits the growth signals created by the exercise, reducing the amount of muscle and blood vessel growth you stimulate. In effect, you grow stronger/fitter (I can't remember if it's one or both) less fast.

Mr. Blonde · Oct 31, 2006

Brighteye said:
Oh yes, drinking sugary stuff during or immediately after exercise may improve performance/recovery slightly, but it inhibits the growth signals created by the exercise, reducing the amount of muscle and blood vessel growth you stimulate. In effect, you grow stronger/fitter (I can't remember if it's one or both) less fast.

Where do you have this from? I don´t think to supply your body with sugar and Magnesia will harm your stimulation from exercise, at least not more than less exercises per week because you need longer recovery times.
In fact, a friend of mine did a 4 months marathon training (like 60km per week) and I can from my own experience confirm as well that there is no possibility to run beyond 90 min or so without input of bananas and/or isotonic drinks. Ever experienced fatigue or muscle cramps and still 5 km to go? Maybe you speak of protein shakes? These are indeed in no way recommendable for biking or running.

thetrooper · Oct 31, 2006

Brighteye said:
If you want to experience less muscle pain the next day, you should try doing some light exercise in between your heavy bouts. Go for a gruelling ride one day, and a few hours later, or next day, go for a light jog for 20 minutes. These recovery runs should not be hard-core training: they are recovery exercise.

This may be my biggest problem so far. Having too many heavy bouts in quick succession.

Ziggy Stardust said:
I'n not talking from experience mind you The only sports i engage in are Pool and Pro Evolution Soccer

Time to do something about it perhaps?

Your tip about slow pedalling is noted.

Mr. Blonde said:
In my experience it is best you avoid anaerob phases during your trips entirely, which could be hard if your track includes steep slopes. As suggested it is best you reduce tempo after anaerob phases for several minutes. If you are back home it is almost too late to do anything about it, however some relaxed biking/runnig next day to get some blood into your muscles could help. Or, the other thing is to go to Sauna/ thermal bath after the training and some recovery time.

My preferred tracks include steep slopes so the anaerob phases are hard to avoid as you said. I've been thinking about Sauna actually, but I doubt that it will help much...

Mr. Blonde said:
If you accept these isotonic stuff I think most companies have some product for recovery, I didn´t find a difference. You should take some of these or fruit juice with you for trips over 1 h.

If you couldn't find a difference I'm not going for it. My trips usually last for 2 hours and I drink some raspberry 'juice' (no sugar added) and water. This adds up to appr. 1.5 L. The temperature here in Norway is currently 4-10 deg C, so I guess that it is sufficient.

Brighteye · Oct 31, 2006

Mr. Blonde said:
Where do you have this from? I don´t think to supply your body with sugar and Magnesia will harm your stimulation from exercise, at least not more than less exercises per week because you need longer recovery times.
In fact, a friend of mine did a 4 months marathon training (like 60km per week) and I can from my own experience confirm as well that there is no possibility to run beyond 90 min or so without input of bananas and/or isotonic drinks. Ever experienced fatigue or muscle cramps and still 5 km to go? Maybe you speak of protein shakes? These are indeed in no way recommendable for biking or running.

Cluberton et al. J. App. Physiol. 2005
While I'm at it, eccentric exercise causes damage (that's pushing whilst your muscle lengthens), and glucose on its own during exercise simply increases glucose usage.
If you want better performance, you should be taking mixed glucose and fructose, and glutamine (which helps mobilise your muscle's glycogen stores). Edit: I see that you drink fruit juice. That's probably good, since it has a fructose-glucose mix in it.

I can from my experience confirm that it is perfectly possible to run for 3 hours with no food or drink, although it did hurt afterwards.

thetrooper · Oct 31, 2006

El_Machinae said:
Salmon oil; Omega-3. The cod liver oil contains (I believe) too much vitamin A to be good for you in the doses needed to reduce inflammation. O-3 oils, though, are shown to reduce inflammation.

The Omega-3 products I use are indeed very rich in vitamins A and D. We simply call it 'tran' over here. Salmon oil; never heard of it. Maybe that's better than cod liver oil.

Atlas14 · Oct 31, 2006

I am a long-distance runner, so I know a little about fatigue. What I do is use ICYHOT, both cream and patches, ice your muscles, if you have a pool, sit in the pool to speed recovery, and stretch!!!!. Even if you think it hurts more, stretching usually always helps when accompanied by one of these other things listed.

Shaihulud · Oct 31, 2006

I can from my experience confirm that it is perfectly possible to run for 3 hours with no food or drink, although it did hurt afterwards.

That sounds very uncomfortable....I enjoy long runs as well, but my advice is not proffessional but it works for me. Build up endurance slowly, but alway push yourself. When you push yourself too much, you will have pain afterwards. Always warm down, stretch, it reduces the discomfort somewhat. I don't feel much pain during the run, but afterwards it hurts if i push myself too hard. I like to soak my muscle in hot water too, but can't be sure that it helps, but it feels really good after a hard workout.

thetrooper · Oct 31, 2006

Atlas14: ICYHOT, that sounds just like the good old Tiger Balm.

Atlas14 · Oct 31, 2006

thetrooper said:
Atlas14: ICYHOT, that sounds just like the good old Tiger Balm.

I've never heard of Tiger Balm, but then again there are loads of products similar to ICYHOT nowdays. I just know it works like a charm and even cleared up my lower back injury four years ago. Oh, and sleep reduces fatigue pretty nicely as well, make sure you're getting a lot of it.

thetrooper · Oct 31, 2006

Atlas14: I used Tiger Balm 10 years ago while playing football. The effects fit nicely with your description of ICYHOT. Probably the same 'icy' effect from menthol.

I'm waiting for our resident Marathon Man, newfangle, to spot this thread.

:scan:

Exercise and recovery.

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