ALC Game #22 Take 2: Arabs/Saladin

Pre-Game Thread

Previous Game

Starting Position (this post, below)
Initial Warrior/Settler Move, 4000 BC
Round 1: 4000 BC to 3975 BC (1 turn!)
Round 2: 3975 BC to 3200 BC (30 turns)
Round 3: 3200 BC to 1750 BC (58 turns)
Round 4: 1750 BC to 775 BC (39 turns)
Round 4 Redux: 1750 BC to 750 BC (40 turns)
Round 5: 750 BC to 365 BC (19 turns)
Round 6: 365 BC to 170 BC (13 turns)
Round 7: 170 BC to 160 AD (22 turns)
Round 8: 160 AD to 385 AD (15 turns)
Round 9: 385 AD to 920 AD (38 turns)
Round 10: 920 AD to 1340 AD (51 turns)
Round 11: 1340 AD to 1525 AD (37 turns)
Round 12: 1525 AD to 1784 AD (77 turns)
Round 13: 1784 AD to 1868 AD (56 turns)
Post Mortem

The idea of the All Leaders Challenge is that I'm going to play a game with each of the Civ IV leaders. With the help of all the posters who participate, I will attempt to make the most of the leader's unique characteristics: traits, starting techs, unit, and building. Aside from the leader, the other game settings are (mostly) kept constant for the sake of comparison. I will post the saved game files, screenshots, and status reports here as the game progresses. Everyone then has a chance to chime in with their strategy ideas, or voice their frustration (or glee) when I make a mistake.

Everyone is invited to offer opinions and advice, and to make your own attempt at playing the same game. But if you do play a "shadow game", I kindly request that you refrain from posting spoilers--i.e. any facts or even hints about the map, opponents, and so on--before I'm there myself. I'm trying to play the game as authentically as possible.

In this ALC game, I'll be playing as Saladin, leader of the Arabs. I'm playing the game using the Beyond the Sword expansion pack, its latest patch (3.13), and Bhruic's unofficial patches as well. The difficulty level is Emperor, the map is Hemispheres (more details below), and the speed is Epic.

The previous attempt at a Saladin game ended ignobly, with wonder-whore Louis XIV teching ridiculously far ahead of me so that by the time I was ready to attack him with Swordsmen, he already had Crossbows. He beat me so bad I was too embarrassed to post the round.

But this time it'll be different! (I hope.)

Here is a more detailed look at the initial game settings.



Here is the starting position:



So I start near stone; ya gotta like that. It won't be in the capital's fat cross if I settle in place, however. Unfortunately the Warrior is not in a good position to tell me what I'll be missing out on if I move the Settler and settle 1W, which seems to me like the obvious move, since it keeps the pigs and most of the river tiles.

To me, the most logical move is for the Warrior to go 1 NE, then move the Settler 1E into the forest; on the following turn, the Warrior goes 1 NE again, revealing one of the tiles I'd give up by moving. If it's nothing spectacular, I settle in place; if it's irresistible (like gold, say) I move back to the starting position and settle there.

I doubt I'll have the stone available in time to help with Stonehenge, but I'm tempted to build that wonder anyway to start getting Great Prophets appearing even before the UB is available. Plus the savings on initial hammers for each new city, by not having to build monuments, is very welcome.

For technologies, I've decided to eschew an early religion this time; if I need to found a religion I should be able to leverage the Madrassa and get a Great Prophet to lightbulb Monotheism, or Theology, or part of Divine Right. Therefore, I think going after Mining and then Bronze Working would be my preferred opening tech path. I'd build a Warrior while growing to size 2, then a Worker who can finish chopping Stonehenge.

Thoughts?

I'd go one west, stone is too valuable to give up IMO. (but I always build the GW and the Pyramids in my games....)

You don't need to move the settler west to claim the stone as you are likely to get the second border pop by the time you tech masonry. However, moving 1 spot west will allow you to work the stone in the BFC as well as claim another hill (to replace the one you lose by moving). Lot's of forrests, few hills.

I agree, no early religion However, you'll want Masonry for the stone anyway, so perhaps a run at Judaism may be a decent idea. Stonehenge for sure for the early GPPs.

Techwise I would go hunting (there is little farmable land), AH, masonry, archery.

As to where to move the warrior, I'll let everyone else debate that for the next 10 pages.

Good luck this time!

Request: Show off the GENERATE A MILION GOLD BY WHIPPING AND CHOPPING WALLS trick since you have stone and protective.

Quotey said:

Request: Show off the GENERATE A MILION GOLD BY WHIPPING AND CHOPPING WALLS trick since you have stone and protective.

Click to expand...

Never heard of that one...

NintendoTogepi said:

I'd go one west, stone is too valuable to give up IMO. (but I always build the GW and the Pyramids in my games....)

Click to expand...

Masonry will be a priority, obviously, and with stone the GW and/or the Pyramids are possibilities.

madscientist said:

Techwise I would go hunting (there is little farmable land), AH, masonry, archery.

Click to expand...

We'll have to see how to get to AH, which is obviously needed and an early priority because of the piggies. If there's no grains in the BFC, I agree that Agriculture can be delayed; but if there are grains in the fog, that's another story.

Remember that I need Mining before I can get to Masonry. Unless you're suggesting techs to pursue after the initial Mining/BW path I proposed?

Sisiutil said:

[...] Unfortunately the Warrior is not in a good position to tell me what I'll be missing out on if I move the Settler and settle 1W, which seems to me like the obvious move [...]

To me, the most logical move is for the Warrior to go 1 NE, then move the Settler 1E into the forest [...]
Thoughts?

Click to expand...

Firstly, 1NW and 1SW also keep the Stone, Pigs and rivers, so we've got lots of choice here - 1SW might be best, for more river tiles.

Secondly, if you plan to move the Settler, you should *not* start by moving him 1E - if he's going anywhere, he should move 1S first, for the extra scouting.

Re: Stonehenge, I agree that if you're not going for a religion it's attractive. Re: religion, I think the clincher is that you won't have an early gold boost - so yeah, pass it up.

And Sis? You don't need Mining for Masonry. You can get it from Mysticism... though Mining will lower the price, and it's a good tech in its own right.

How about this: claim the goody hut with the warrior first. You might get another warrior, a scout or a map, all of which will be better for information gathering than moving the warrior one tile.

I don't know if angry villagers can spawn on turn zero, but that would be hilarious . Loss before the game even started.

1SW seems to have more river than 1W

I'm undecided on whether to settle in place. the squares to the east in the dark appear not to be trees. Therefore a metal or horses may appear there later. the area west of the stone is desert at least in part. The warrior can't help much with this question.

Related to this is the question of the Mids. With stone and this many trees they are a definite possibility.

If you move 1W and begin with a worker, I don't see why you couldn't get the stone on line in time to help with Stonehenge. You could even start with a warrior and have time to get stone to help with Stonehenge. Stone on a plains tile is lots of production.

On balance, I guess I would move 1W and settle, but we won't know for many turns whether that is the right call.

If we're talking about moving 1W, why not also consider moving 1SW? It seems likely to get you more riverfront tiles, if nothing else.

Be radical. Settle east and found city#2 directly on the stone.

I just want to add, I'm merely suggesting 1SW *if* we move. As it is, I'm not sure we have enough information to justify that. A plains quarry is only really about as good as a mined hill, right? And with no possibility of popping resources later. So I don't think it's worth wasting a turn (and a forest) for.

For the hut, I'd rather pop it peacefully (probably with the city borders) - no point tempting fate.

- Send the Warrior 1SE, which will give us information about the cities in place, 1W and 1SW... all three main contenders.
- Assuming it sees nothing staggering, settle in place.
- Research I agree with the Mad one.

EDIT: Pigswill, I feel a city on the Stone would be poor because of (at least) 2 desert tiles to its West... and the Capital overlapping to the East, so where would its good land be? Better to found on one of the desert squares (probably the unimproveable one SW of the Stone), which extracts maximum value from the city.

oldsaxon said:

And Sis? You don't need Mining for Masonry. You can get it from Mysticism... though Mining will lower the price, and it's a good tech in its own right.

Click to expand...

DUH. I never noticed that before. I don't usually play with leaders who start with Mysticism.

Sisiutil said:

Never heard of that one...

Click to expand...

Put your eyes on this.... vale explains it pretty well

About the game: move the warrior and post screen

I think that you should move the warrior to the W, and same with the settler. The tech path I request is mining, masonry, BW, then we'll see after that.

Move the warrior 1 NE...

I agree if grains are in the BFC agriculture first. But if there are none, hunting get's you to archery faster.

Mysticism leads to masonry.

Going mining/BW first may not be the best approach as you do need food pretty fast, and it looks like a 2 tech route. In fact I think saladin is one leader you can delay mining/BW for a bit. Hunting/AH/Masonry can get you the stone hooked up fast enough to cut the cost of stonehenge in half.

Yay! An ALC I can finally participate in.

A quick thanks to Sisiutil for doing these games and to all the players that contribute to these discussions. You guys/gals are the reason I'm finally winning occasionally on noble.

I'm enough of a gambler to be willing to bet that the odds of an irrigated corn/wheat tile being very close east would be slim to none. (Wouldn't be the first time I was wrong either. )


Personally, I'd settle 1SW You'll keep the pigs, pick up the stone in the BFC, along with a second plains hill and a minimum of 7 grassland river tiles and you will still have several forests available for chopping. (I think I counted right.)

I've got to say, Masonry first is very appealing. That's an aspect of starting with Mysticism I hadn't considered: early Masonry. Get the Stone in your BFC and you're well-placed to get Stonehenge.

That would show off some of Saladin's advantages. Especially since starting with the Wheel means you can road to that Stone immediately.

After that, I'd go Hunting-Archery-Animal Husbandry, then decide techs based on the scouting.

Is that a mountain or a hill 2 SW? I think you can see mountains over forests.

Moving is tough.

There might be a special resource 2E or where your settler is.

What's the advantage of having a much earlier great prophet again? Theology instead of philosophy?