New tech tree suggestions.

i also agree with masada that if you remove one unit from a civ (ie removing the Forest dragon or tree kin from woodelves, then they are no longer TRULY woodelves.

I'm mostly fine with including as many tabletop units as possible with one particular exception; the tabletop game has a wide variation in the detail in which it describes factions. I worry that adopting this doctrine is going to cause problems like in your design for dark elves and high elves. Dark and high elves are really detailed - there are tons and tons of units available to them because they've been around since the very beginning of warhammer and so they have tons of canon to support them. If you include every unit available to them, then you will have those factions able to do everything (ie great monsters and great melee and great cavalry and great magic etc. etc), and to have many more specialist units available (each faction should have roughly the same total number of national units).

Each faction should have roughly the same units; if Dark Elves have 35 units while Skaven and Dwarves only have 20, then we have a problem.

Think of each building having a military function in addition to having a civilian function if any

I don't know how feasible this is, but its worth thinking about if you can come up with enou
But do you really want any faction able to recruit ogres? I don't really see high elven ogres around.

and I’m still convinced that there should be no building X is required for unit Y at all

Why? Its not like it troubles the AI (which was the problem for it in FFH for eg); I see warchariots and knights and cannons built by the AI every game. So, what is the problem with forcing some slight specialisation between cities? I agree that its nice for standard/core units to not need a building (unlike FFH, where training yard is needed for swordsman, hunting lodge needed for hunters, etc.), but I fail to see why you can't have a requirement for really advanced units.

I think broadening the tech requirements of units
You can't easily implement more than 2 techs to require any given unit. So you would have to implement this by broadening tech requirements for the techs that grant the units (I'm not sure if there is a restriction on the number of techs another tech can require). I'll develop some ideas for this.

I was going to differentiate between races, and teams
I don't think these proposals are possible. In particular, I don't think the AI will be able to handle them. They would also be massively hard to balance with free xp from buildings and structures.

Remember that fundamentally the human player is much much better at preserving their units than the AI. Very often in a human vs AI war, the AI has superior production capacity (because of dogpiling or just difficulty level bonuses) but the human superior intelligence, so the AI is constantly producing new units to throw at the human, who is trying to cleverly use tactics to preserve their army.
This simple fact (humans use older units, AI uses more recently constructed units) means that these proposals are unlikely to work.

I think the best way to go is to stick with "high elven population", "greenskin population" type buildings that are present in all of a factions cities, and can give things like food bonus/penalty, milproduction bonus/penalty, etc., and leader traits.
So a high elven army (slow city growth, units with 2 moves and first strike chance, expensive units) will still play quite differently from a greenskin army (raider promotion autopillaging, city attack bonuses, huge low-tech army from military production bonuses/research penalties).

And I strongly disagree with the idea that I should just amp up the difficulty... it doesnt change much.

I find that the game plays very differently on high difficulties. The AI fields a much larger army and is much further ahead in tech. I'm going to be behind in tech leader(s) most of the game, where as on low difficulties you can easily dominate the AI and walk over whoever you like with superior units.
 
It's up to PL with his Elves, I don't think he wants every unit ever created he just doesn't want to miss any if he can avoid it.
I don't know how feasible this is, but its worth thinking about if you can come up with enough

But do you really want any faction able to recruit ogres? I don't really see high elven ogres around.

It's not completely feasible, but most of the dodgy buildings are going anyway, it's not impossible to give the remaining buildings some military utility (I’m not going to make it a rule, some buildings just won’t have any military use, that’s fine, they will have an event use though... sewers and Skaven mix so nicely).

I don’t see why not, Ogres fight with most factions they’re mercenaries by nature, it’s a flavourful and interesting addition I think.

Why? Its not like it troubles the AI (which was the problem for it in FFH for eg); I see warchariots and knights and cannons built by the AI every game. So, what is the problem with forcing some slight specialisation between cities? I agree that its nice for standard/core units to not need a building (unlike FFH, where training yard is needed for swordsman, hunting lodge needed for hunters, etc.), but I fail to see why you can't have a requirement for really advanced units.
It’s the annoyance factor more than anything, after having to research a big expensive tech you have then to build the building (but as long as we keep it for specialised units, then it’s fine; we used to have FFH building requirements). At least progress is being made on amalgamating the +XP buildings... that was a really big dislike of mine.


You can't easily implement more than 2 techs to require any given unit. So you would have to implement this by broadening tech requirements for the techs that grant the units (I'm not sure if there is a restriction on the number of techs another tech can require). I'll develop some ideas for this.

If it only requires 2 techs which are fairly well integrated into the tech tree and require a fairly large amount of preceding techs that will be enough. You should be able to build your whole army, but I see no reason not to split it up abit, and intertwine the techs with each other (we should never have a long tech chain which has no links to any other... if we can possibly avoid it; and that's only if nothing else works)

I don't think these proposals are possible. In particular, I don't think the AI will be able to handle them. They would also be massively hard to balance with free xp from buildings and structures.

Granted, you’re right that the AI can’t handle it very well, but I don’t see the Orcs and Goblins getting many buildings at all, aside from specialised Orc and Gobbo buildings. So if we keep it deliberately simple and try and reduce the variables it should balanceable. Not that balance has been a strenght of this mod :p

However if that proves to be impractical, then if differentiation is achieved by buildings then it’s achieved, I wonder if that can be hardcoded into the teams though by lowering the civilization variables instead.

I find that the game plays very differently on high difficulties. The AI fields a much larger army and is much further ahead in tech. I'm going to be behind in tech leader(s) most of the game, where as on low difficulties you can easily dominate the AI and walk over whoever you like with superior units.

We should notice a problem in our mod if we have to turn the difficulty way up to achieve a noticeable warhammerish flavour. But it still to me feels at higher levels that the AI doesn’t really know what its doing, it appears to be drowned in choices… and hanging on because it gets massive +production bonuses etc not because it understands the system any better. You have a problem when your AI has a +50% hammer advantage and is still not capable... tech reform should help (not to mention its other more serious benefits).
 
I'm mostly fine with including as many tabletop units as possible with one particular exception; the tabletop game has a wide variation in the detail in which it describes factions. I worry that adopting this doctrine is going to cause problems like in your design for dark elves and high elves. Dark and high elves are really detailed - there are tons and tons of units available to them because they've been around since the very beginning of warhammer and so they have tons of canon to support them. If you include every unit available to them, then you will have those factions able to do everything (ie great monsters and great melee and great cavalry and great magic etc. etc), and to have many more specialist units available (each faction should have roughly the same total number of national units).

Each faction should have roughly the same units; if Dark Elves have 35 units while Skaven and Dwarves only have 20, then we have a problem.

thats not that big a issue, just means we get to use our creativity to make UU replacements for civs that DONT have table top uus :)

It's not completely feasible, but most of the dodgy buildings are going anyway, it's not impossible to give the remaining buildings some military utility (I’m not going to make it a rule, some buildings just won’t have any military use, that’s fine, they will have an event use though... sewers and Skaven mix so nicely).

I don’t see why not, Ogres fight with most factions they’re mercenaries by nature, it’s a flavourful and interesting addition I think.

its and interesting idea. and yeh ogres have been known to sell their services t othe highest bidder (or one to supply them with the most food...)
 
@Darkform

I’ve been playing and watching warhammer for a long time, we use the 6th edition rules, since the 7 edition Vampire Counts rules were patently for Sylvania all other non Von Carstien players got screwed by generic lists.

ya I also think 6th edition is better for Vampire Counts because trying to chose powers like a Necrarch Bloodline used to have and build a Necrarch type army in 7th just feels like a nerffed version of 6th. I'm also sad that Master Necromancers was removed from the army list. it is like they chose to only have Sylvania in the army list but let them have accsess to all bloodlines except on top of it they nerffed necromancy summons and made the good summons Bloodline powers where necromancers can't even get them.

(before 7th I used to play with ether Necrarch or just Necromancers. and now IDK what I will do I haven't got a army together yet and don't know when I will have the funds.)

I also felt bad when tomb kings and Vampire Counts split from "Undead" because I wanted Necromancers but I still wanted Skelletal Archers and nether had both. (at the time I had a 1,000 point army of archers calvary and a Necromancer. so I had to toss over 1/2 the army to keep the Necromancer.)

now I'm old and on a fixed income I probably can't get a 2,000 point army and paint it by the time the rules change again.

well anyways I would be very happy if we used 6th edition to base Vampire Counts on and have 6 Vampire Counts playable Civs 1 each Bloodline and 1 Necro only. (because each have different core, special and rare setups.) but going by 7th Sylvania and Lahmia can have all the same units at all the same rareity the only thing makeing one look diffrent or to tell the diffrence is the general (leader) because now you can have a Lahmia leading a Von Carstien or a Von Carstien leading a Lahmia in battle the only way to know whitch civ it is is to see if the leader is a Von Carstien, Lahmia, Strogoi, Necrarch or Blood Dragon.

by 7th rules if they don't want 2 civs so simular they need to drop 1 call the remaining one Vampire Counts and give it 5+ leaders at least 1 of each Bloodline. in 7th lore Von Carstiens are not even in charge of Sylvania anymore. (they do live in Sylvania trying to build a army but not out in the open on a throne.)
 
about rare units in Vampire Counts and haveing more of them than other civs. I would be ok with a lower limit than you'r base 4 on each if it means I can have at least 1 or 2 of each in the armybook.

maybe 4-10:

Grave Guard
Black Knights
Fell Bats
Spirit Hosts

and 1-4:

Varghulfs
Carirrn Wraith (with posable Tomb Banshee upgrade only 1-2 of the upgrade tho)
Blood Knights
Black Coach (and this should be War Chariot UU not regular chariot UU)

unlimited or very high limit:

Bat Swarms
Corpse Carts (I think supply train UU)
Zombies
Skeletons
Crypt Ghouls
Dire Wolves (Hunter UU)

1-2 tend to be 1 Lords and Heros:

Vampire (upgrades to Vampire Lord and can only have 1-2 tend to say 1)
Necromancer (with the # of spellcasters every other civ gets might need more necromancers especially without a Master necromancer)
Wight King (tend to be 1 upgrades from Grave Guard)
Wight King mounted (tend to be 1 upgrades from Black Knight)

from how the talk of how Vampires will work I see making Necromancers having them time lvl to lvl 6 then Bloodkiss for the feel of having a Vampire army. that way they get access to the Vampire skills and spells where bloodkissing a archer or non-spellcaster makes a Vampire that has no spells.
really need to give Necros a Master Necro tho.
 
hmmm I did take a tiny window to open up Vampire Counts and quickly went off topic didn't I? sorry about that but dealing with WH my mind always tends to wander it's way to Vampire Counts and then I expand the topic of Vampire Counts.
 
it's not impossible to give the remaining buildings some military utility

So... you want to remove all the "require building X to create unit y" buildings that currently exist because you are fundamentally opposed to the mechanic, and then make a whole bunch of new ones "need spice road to build ogres".
we should never have a long tech chain which has no links to any other... if we can possibly avoid it

Even for trade, education, religion or construction techs?

However if that proves to be impractical, then if differentiation is achieved by buildings then it’s achieved, I wonder if that can be hardcoded into the teams though by lowering the civilization variables instead.

Very important part of project design; identify costly infeasible ideas early, and avoid spending time implementing them, rather than implementing them and then seeing if they work well or not.
tech reform should help (not to mention its other more serious benefits).

The main causes of weak AI behavior are forestlock and watchtower spam (instead of cottages). Fix these and it can brute-force everything else.
 
the 1 game I played of WH mod watchtower spam was very bad. it was common for me to take a city with 5 watchtowers in it's BFC and the AI only used 1 tower for deffence the whole game the rest of the towers had no troops on them ever when I could see them. that's like over 500 watchtowers built and only 1 got used and that 1 was on Iron so the civ wasn't getting the Iron it was just guarding it.

tho I did have a scout sitting outside a civ in BTS before and watched as it moved a worker to the Iron with a mine on it 2 spaces from me and build a fort and put a archer in it. sometimes I think the AI needs some major work.

I think you should be able to have both the mine and fort/tower. and what good are forts/towers anyways? when I see a fort/tower I avoid it and go for the city beside it only the AI as far as I know actually attacks units that are in a fort/tower.

I attack the closest city then AI moves out of fort/tower to reinforce city if I didn't take it in one turn. and if I do take it and he sits in his fort/tower I say good that one will just poof after I take his other citys.
 
the 1 game I played of WH mod watchtower spam was very bad

Watchtower spam is mostly removed by removing the commerce bonuses from it. This will be in the next patch.

and what good are forts/towers anyways?

They provide a defensive bonus to units in nearby tiles (or they're supposed to, anyway). So, if there is a fortress within 2 tiles of a city, you should have an easier time assaulting the city if you first pillage away the fortress. The fortress doesn't only defend the tile its in. (I think keeps have a 1 tile range, fortresses 2?).

The AI is never really going to use fortresses well. And they're not going to be that useful to the human player except on maps with narrow mountain passes (which the warhammer map DOES have). RIP the civ1 zone of control system, which made forts pretty decent.
 
the 1 game I played of WH mod watchtower spam was very bad. it was common for me to take a city with 5 watchtowers in it's BFC and the AI only used 1 tower for deffence the whole game the rest of the towers had no troops on them ever when I could see them. that's like over 500 watchtowers built and only 1 got used and that 1 was on Iron so the civ wasn't getting the Iron it was just guarding it.

tho I did have a scout sitting outside a civ in BTS before and watched as it moved a worker to the Iron with a mine on it 2 spaces from me and build a fort and put a archer in it. sometimes I think the AI needs some major work.

I think you should be able to have both the mine and fort/tower. and what good are forts/towers anyways? when I see a fort/tower I avoid it and go for the city beside it only the AI as far as I know actually attacks units that are in a fort/tower.

I attack the closest city then AI moves out of fort/tower to reinforce city if I didn't take it in one turn. and if I do take it and he sits in his fort/tower I say good that one will just poof after I take his other citys.

At least in the normal game, forts harvest resources under them. The AI builds forts on resources outside the fat cross of cities to harvest the resource and provide a defensive bonus for units it stations there.

I'd like to see normal forts get re-implemented. I miss being able to park boats in fort squares. (This was also the way to 'dig canals')
 
At least in the normal game, forts harvest resources under them. The AI builds forts on resources outside the fat cross of cities to harvest the resource and provide a defensive bonus for units it stations there.

I'd like to see normal forts get re-implemented. I miss being able to park boats in fort squares. (This was also the way to 'dig canals')

do towers do this also? if so I might build some next time. I never built them because the game told me it would remove the mine but if fort harvests the resource then I can give the guy guarding the resource a little more cover.
 
hmmm I did take a tiny window to open up Vampire Counts and quickly went off topic didn't I? sorry about that but dealing with WH my mind always tends to wander it's way to Vampire Counts and then I expand the topic of Vampire Counts.

[aside] dont worry im the same with woodelves ;) [end asside]

we should never have a long tech chain which has no links to any other... if we can possibly avoid it

i think what masada means is its best not to have any 'dead end' tech paths.
 
So... you want to remove all the "require building X to create unit y" buildings that currently exist because you are fundamentally opposed to the mechanic, and then make a whole bunch of new ones "need spice road to build ogres".

It's a wonder, there is a fundimental difference. And yes I dislike that mechanic intensely and I can't be the only person who finds after having spent 20 turns researching a tech I then have to build the bloody 20 turn building. It's a small gripe, and i've made that clear, but it's an important point to make before someone waltz's in and goes lets give each unit a building requirement! (it's happened).

Even for trade, education, religion or construction techs?

I was thinking more about the end game techs... they don't tie into anything but the one before them... and because of the way the system is setup you can just research down a line without any backfilling. EDIT: PL puts it better.
Very important part of project design; identify costly infeasible ideas early, and avoid spending time implementing them, rather than implementing them and then seeing if they work well or not.

Far from it, if I want to go and hardcode it to each civilization, it's my choice, if it's easier to do it by buildings then its easier to do it by buildings. It's called a hypothetical... but i'm sure some of your ideas have been similarily difficult, just because it might be doesn't mean we shouldn't attempt it now does it? The suggestions part of the title of this forum appears not to matter.

But sure let's attack not the idea, but the implementation!
The main causes of weak AI behavior are forestlock and watchtower spam (instead of cottages). Fix these and it can brute-force everything else.

Well forestlock will be fixed by giving the AI access to bronzeworking about 30 turns quicker which means we don't need our placeholder chop tech for that. As to watchtower spam, well do we need them? I've likewise seen a fair few keeps in the fat cross, probably not the most desireable thing either (suffice to say i'll talk to PL about it for possible solutions, I do think our map script was changed at some point which might explain it).

@Darkform:

I totally agree, I think though atm we need to look at just making Sylvania and Lhamia playable as civs, differentiate them all you want, you obviously know more than any of us about them :p
 
Actually, in my games, the AI was pretty good about watchtowers... they never had more than one in the fat cross (not bad), except for some Goblin cities that were surrounded by Tundra - which, all things considered, was actually a good thing since the Tundra gained some Commerce instead of nothing.
 
i think what masada means is its best not to have any 'dead end' tech paths.

Ahh, understood. Like Bloodbowl in the current tree. I'm fine with that, thats good design.
It's a wonder, there is a fundimental difference.

If its only on wonders, then yes, I agree. I thought you wanted to go through and add military benefits such as allowing new units to every non-military building.
And yes I dislike that mechanic intensely and I can't be the only person who finds after having spent 20 turns researching a tech I then have to build the bloody 20 turn building.

I like it for flavor for a few units but I'm not really attached to it, I'll go with whatever other people want.
Far from it, if I want to go and hardcode it to each civilization, it's my choice,

If you want to go ahead and code something like that yourself, go ahead. If I have time I'll try to playtest it for you. But I think its much easier to do with buildings and unit design.

But sure let's attack not the idea, but the implementation!
The ability to implement is inherent in the idea. I'm also no coder, so I try to avoid making work for other people whenever possible.

Well forestlock will be fixed by giving the AI access to bronzeworking about 30 turns quicker which means we don't need our placeholder chop tech for that. As to watchtower spam, well do we need them?

Hmm... earlier bronzeworking *might* be enough. Do you think that eliminating/merging some of the early game techs will be sufficient to make the AI get bronzeworking early? Part of the problem is how expensive the mining tech is, I suppose.
Watchtowerspam is solved by removing the commerce benefit. I don't have any particular attachment to them and never really build them, but I think some people like them, particularly on the warhammer map for blocking mountain passes.
 
Ahh, understood. Like Bloodbowl in the current tree. I'm fine with that, thats good design.
Hmm... earlier bronzeworking *might* be enough. Do you think that eliminating/merging some of the early game techs will be sufficient to make the AI get bronzeworking early? Part of the problem is how expensive the mining tech is, I suppose.
As I see it the tech tree before we start getting canon units is really just to setup your Empire, ready to start playing with the tabletop favourites. Moving mining down to tier one where it should be and reducing the cost should help. I'm all for adopting the BTS tech tree because A) it works, B) because we have nothing interesting there, C) because the interesting stuff is up the tech tree, and D) because of AI and player problems with it...
Watchtowerspam is solved by removing the commerce benefit. I don't have any particular attachment to them and never really build them, but I think some people like them, particularly on the warhammer map for blocking mountain passes.

Problem solved.
If its only on wonders, then yes, I agree. I thought you wanted to go through and add military benefits such as allowing new units to every non-military building.

By military purpose i'm talking about things like the market perhaps having a military bonus of some type worked in, maybe giving recon units a special promotion "thief" or something which gives them +withdrawl... little characterful things, if we can't work it then we can't work it.

As to % bonuses for buildings (markets, banks), someone here has been screaming for that for a long long long time...
The ability to implement is inherent in the idea. I'm also no coder, so I try to avoid making work for other people whenever possible.
I always try and think things through, civilization specific amendments would be possible, but if we can achieve it through buildings easier then we can (I can code, but I'm rather rusty :p). Amending each and every palace with a single civ or racial series of pro's and con's would probably be the easiest, since there is pre-existing code for stuff like that.
 
A new tech tree design.

This tries to include many of the suggestions made in this thread and the combat thread:
Removing unit line “specialization” to encourage combined arms.
Removing many techs and buildings.
Adding high-end promotions to boost canon units in the lategame.

If people like this, we can add in tech costs.
Note that "uncivilised" factions will be unable to research cannons, rifling, advanced engineering, banking, economics, steam power and steel.
And even some "civilised" factions (like Brettonnia) will be unable to research rifling and steam power.

I'll add proposals for unit type changes (including some soft-counter unit bonuses) in another post in the combat changes thread.

New promotions:
Spoiler :
Steel weapons. +2 strength, +20% strength. Replaces iron weapons (so all it does is an extra 20% strength over iron weapons). Requires steel tech, requires iron resource. Requires mastersmith. Applied for free (like bronze/iron weapons).

(Note that steel tech is only researchable by “civilized” civs, so it can’t be too strong).

Meteoric iron: gives +10% strength. Requires meteoric iron tech. Requires weaonsmith. Requires meteoric iron resource. Applied for free (like bronze/iron weapons), stacks with bronze/iron/steel.

Gromrilarmor: gives +1 strength. Requires meteoric iron tech. Requires Runeforge (dwarven mastersmith UB). Requires meteoric iron resource. Applied for free, stacks with bronze/iron/steel.

Adamantite armor: +10% strength, +1 first strike. Requires meteoric iron tech. Requires Druichii mastersmith UB. Applied for free, stacks with bronze/iron/steel.

Ithilmar armor: +10% strength, +1 first strike. Requires Forge of Vaul (high elf mastersmith UB). Requires meteoric iron resource. Requires meteoric iron tech. Applied for free, stacks with bronze/iron/steel.

Daemonarmor: +1 strength. Applied only to chaos knights, chaos warriors. Requires Chaosforge (Kurgan, Norsca, Hung UB - maybe also chaos dwarvse?). Require meteoric iron resource. Requires meteoric iron tech. Applied for free, stacks with bronze/iron/steel.

Advanced promotions:
Missile units:
Improved weapons1 +10% strength, +1 first strike, requires Advanced Doctrines 1 tech.
Improved weapons 2 +1 first strike, +20% vs archery units, requires improved weapons 1, requires advanced doctrines 2 tech.
Improved weapons 3 +2 first strikes, +20% vs melee units, requires improved rifles 2, requires advanced doctrines 3 tech.

Missile cavalry units:
Maneuver 1: +10% withdraw chance, +10% vs melee, +10% vs chariots. Requires advanced doctrines 1 tech.
Maneuver 2: +10% strength, +1 first strike. Requires advanced doctrines 3 tech, require maneuver 1.
Maneuver 3: +1 movement, flanking bonus vs melee units. Requires advanced doctrines 3 tech, requires maneuver 2.

Shock cavalry units:
Furious charge 1: Gives +10% strength, +10% vs melee units, requires advanced doctrines 1 tech.
Furious charge 2: Gives +10% strength, +1 first strike, requires furious charge 1, requires advanced doctrines 2 tech.
Furious charge 3: Gives +10% strength, +20% vs archery units, +20% vs gunpowder units. Requires Furious charge 2, requires advanced doctrines 3 tech.

Recon units:
Terrain master 1: +20% forest, ancient forest, wetland, jungle, deep jungle, hills, tundra, ice,desert strength. Require advanced doctrines 1 tech.
Terrain master 2: +20% forest, ancient forest, wetland, jungle, deep jungle, hills, tundra, ice,desert strength, +20% vs beasts. Requires terrain master 1. Requires advanced doctrines 2 tech.
Terrain master 3: +20% forest, ancient forest, wetland, jungle, deep jungle, hills, tundra, ice,desert strength, invisible. Requires terrain master 2, requires advanced doctrines 3 tech.

Beast units:
Hardened skin 1: +10% strength, +20% fire, electrical, holy, death, poison resistance. Requires advanced doctrines 1 tech.
Hardened skin 2: +10% strength, +20% fire, electrical, holy, death, poison resistance. Require hardened skin 1, requires advanced doctrines 2 tech.
Hardened skin 3: +10% strength, immune to first strikes, immune to magic. Requires hardened skin 1, requires advanced doctrines 3 tech.

Melee units:
Elite discipline 1. +10% strength, +10% city attack. Requires advanced doctrines 1 tech.
Elite discipline 2 +10% strength, +20% vs mounted units. Requires elite training 1, requires advanced doctrines 2 tech.
Elite discipline 3. +10% strength, immune to fear, immune to terror, immune to charm. Requires Elite discipline 2, requires advanced doctrines 3 tech.

Siege units:
Siegecraft 1: +10% city bombard damage +20% city attack. Requires advanced doctrines 1. tech
Siegecraft 2: +20% withdrawal chance, +20% city attack. Requires advanced doctrines 2 tech, requires siegecraft 1.
Siegeraft 3: Immune to first strikes, +20% city attack. Requires siegecraft 2 tech, advanced doctrines 3 tech.

Hero units:
Heroic might 1: +1 strength, requires advanced doctrines 1 tech.
Heroic might 2: +1 strength, requires advanced doctrines 2 tech, heroic might 1.
Heroic might 3: +1 strength, requires advanced doctrines 3 tech, heroic might 2.



The new tech tree (no beaker costs included for now)

Spoiler :
Basic techs:

All beaker costs are based on costs displayed on Immortal difficulty (where agriculture tech costs 150 beakers). Scale all tech costs accordingly.

Spoiler :
Tier 1/2 techs.
Fishing. As current.
Agriculture. As current..
Wild Paths. As current. (All civs start with Wild Paths OR roads tech).
Roads As current. (All civs start with wild paths OR roads tech).
Hunting. As current.
Mysticism. As current.
Mining. No tech requirement, beaker cost 250.

Crafting (requires: (fishing OR agriculture). Can build cottage. Can build winery. Can build brewery. Allows Inn. Beaker cost: 250.
Animal husbandry. Requires agriculture OR hunting. Effects as current.
Calendar. As current.
Ancient Lore. Can build Elven gods shrine (with masonry). Can build Ancestor gods shrine (with nature lore). Enables Clansmanship. Allows Elder council. Does NOT allow tech trading. Tech cost 250 beakers. (Merge of contemplation and chronicles).
Archery. As current.
Ceremonial burial. As current.


Tech lines:
Metal working line:
Spoiler :
1. Bronze working (requires mining). Allows bronze weapon upgrade. Allows forestchop.
2. Metal casting (requires bronze working). Reveals iron. Allows Forge.
3. Iron working. (requires metal casting). Allows iron weapons upgrade. +10 hammers from forest clearance.
4. Advanced smithing (requires iron working). Allows pikemen (with military tradition). Allows knights (with tournaments). Allows weaponsmith building.
5. Meteoric iron. (requires iron working, requires advanced smithing) Allows meteoric iron mine. Allows meteoric iron upgrade.
6. Steel (requires advanced smithing, requires advanced engineering). Allows steel weapons promotion. Allows great forge. Allows drydock.

*Edit* It also might be worth tying metal techs into the tactics line in case the AI doesn't know to research them early enough.


Tactics line:
Spoiler :
1. Warfare (Requires hunting). Allows spearman warband. Allows axeman warband (with bronze working). Allows barracks (with masonry).
2. Military discipline (requires warfare, requires bronze working): Allows chariot. Allows supply train.
3. Tactics (requires military discipline, requires Tyranny OR Lordship, requires archery, requires horseback riding): Allows militia spearman. Allows militia swordsman. Allows militia bowman (with bowyers tech). Allows city garrison 2, city raider 2.
4. Mercenary contracts (requires Tactics, requires Currency). As current.
5. Military tradition. (requires Tactics, requires civil service OR feudalism, requires stirrups, requires ironworking). Allows pikemen (with advanced smithing). Allows longbowman (with advanced archery). Allows standard bearer. Allows the War Academy wonder. Allows Standing Army civic.


Archery line:
Spoiler :
1. Archery (as current).
2. Bowyers (requires archery). Allows militia bowman (with tactics).
3. Advanced archery. (Requires bowyers, requires tactics) Allows crossbowman (with invention). Allows longbowman (with military tradition). Allows bowyers building.


Recon line:
Spoiler :
1. Hunting (as current).
2. Nature lore (requires hunting). Allows hunting lodge. Allow herbalist. Reveals tea, reveals pipeweed. Allows Hunter skirmish troop.
3. Tracking (requires tracking). Allows ranger skirmish troop. +1 trail movement. Allows Spellsinger (with Lore of Athel Loren).


Beast taming line:
Spoiler :
1. Monster taming (requires nature lore). As current.
2. Monster breeding (require monster taming, requires military discipline). As current.
3. Monster bonding (requires monster breeding, requires tracking, requires tactics). As current.


Cavalry line:
Spoiler :
1. Horseback riding (requires animal husbandry). Allows ancient cavalry. Enables Horde. Allows stable.
2. Stirrups (requires horseback riding, requires military discipline). Allows horsearcher (with archery). Allow Lancer.
3. Tournaments (requires stirrups, requires feudalism). Allows Knight with advanced smithing.


Trade line:
Spoiler :
1. Trade (requires sailing OR horseback riding). Allows marketplace. Allows the Great Bazaar. Allows the Spice Road. Allows the Silk Route. Allows open borders.
2. Currency. (requires Trade, requires metal casting, requires Lordship). Enables gold trading via diplomacy. Enables city states civic. Can build wealth. Adds +2 gold to marketplace.
3. Guilds (requires currency, requires civil service OR feudalism) As current.
4. Banking (requires guilds, requires mathematics) As current.
5. Economics. (requires banking, requires education). As current.


Construction line:
Spoiler :
1. Masonry. (requires crafting). Allows barracks (with warfare). Allows shrines (with religious tech). Allows slavery civic.
2. Construction. (requires masonry). +1 road movement. Allows monument (with lordship). Allows castle. Allows bloodbowl arena (with tyrrany). Allows Bloodwiser stadium (with Tyranny) (or move to engineering?).
3. Sanitation. (requires construction). Allows jungle clearance. Allows sewers. Allows floating gardens of lost X (with irrigation).
4. Irrigation. (requires construction). Farms spread irrigation. Can build farms without fresh water. +1 food from farms. Allows floating gardens of lost X (with sanitation).
5. Engineering. (requires construction AND machinery). As current. Gives free great engineer to first researcher? Maybe move Bloodweiser stadium here?
6. Advanced Engineering. (requires engineering, requires civil service, requires irrigation, requires sanitation). As current.


Chemistry line:
Spoiler :
1. Alchemy. (requires metal casting, requires philosophy). As current.
2. Cannons. (requires alchemy, requires invention). As current, except not needed for frigate.
3. Rifling. (requires cannons, requires military tradition, requires engineering). Allows cavalry. Allows handgunner.


Mechanisation line:
Spoiler :
1. Mathematics. Requires masonry. As current.
2. Invention. Requires mathematics. Requires construction. Allows crossbowman (with advanced archery). Allows bolt-thrower.
3. Machinery. Requires invention. Requires iron working. As current.
4. Steam power. +50% worker rate. Allows steamtank (with steel). Allows gyrocoptor.


Naval line:
Spoiler :
1. Sailing. (requires fishing). As current.
2. Astrology. (requires calendar) As current.
3. Navigation (requires sailing, requires astrology). As current.
4. Astronomy. (requires navigation). As current (except that frigates to not require cannons).


Government line:
Spoiler :
1. Lordship. As current.
2. Tyranny. Allow dungeon. Allows Bloodbowl arena (with construction). Allows bloodwiser stadium (with construction - or maybe with engineering).
3. Feudalism. (requires Lordship OR tyranny).
4. Civil service. (requires currency).


Religion line: Philosophy, salvation, corruption and eternal life provide a free missionary to all civs that can adopt these religions (that way, non-shrine builders can still get the religion early).
Spoiler :
1. Ancient lore. (see above, merged contemplation and chroncles).
2. Ceremonial burial. As current.
3. Philosophy. Allows free tech to first discover. Allows wandering scholars civic. Allows caste system civic.
4. Words of Salvation. As current.
5. Corruption of Chaos. As current.
6. Eternal Life. (fills current Necromancy slot. Necromancy magic is a more expensive tech that requires eternal life.) Required for basic necromancy units – skeletal warriors, skeletal bowmen, etc. (along with appropriate other techs.)
7. Priesthood. (requires philosophy, requires ceremonial burial). Allows various priest UUs. Allows sisters of Shallya wonder.
8. Fanaticism. Requires priesthood. As current.


Education line:
Spoiler :
1. Literacy. (requires ancient lore, requires priesthood). Allows library. Allows wandering scholars civic. Can build research. +4 beakers to White Tower, Tower of Eternal Wood, The Dark Covenant. Allows the Black Library. Allows High Elf mage unit. Allows Dark elf mage unit. (Deliberately earlier than other mages - and wood elf mage allowed with the tech for rangers). Allows tech trading.
2. Education (requires literacy, requires mathematics). Allows channeling 2 promotion. Allows university. Allows Lore of X mages. Allows scholarship.


Elemental magic line:
Spoiler :
1. Elemental magic. (requires Raw magic, requires Naturelore) Allows elementalist (=mage).
2. Master of Fire. (requires Elemental magic).
3. Master of Air. (requires elemental magic)
4. Master of Water. (requires elemental magic)
5. Master of Earth. (requires elemental magic)
7. Elemental mastery. (requires Master of Fire OR master of Air OR master of water OR master of earth). Allows elemental master (=archmage).


Winds of magic line:
Spoiler :
1. Winds of magic. (requires literacy, requires raw magic). Adds +1 happy to coven.
2. Lore of death. (requires ceremonial burial, requires literacy, requires winds of magic). Allows amthethyst magic 1, 2, 3. Allows Amethyst college (with graveyard) Allows Amethyst wizard (with Education). Allows Amethyst archmage (with arcane lore).
3. Lore of fire. (requires literacy, requires winds of magic). Allows Bright magic 1, bright magic 2, bright magic 3. Allows Bright College (with university). Allows Bright Mage (with the college). Allows bright archmage (with arcane lore).
4. Lore of shadow. (requires civil service, requires winds of magic). As above.
5. Lore of metal. (requires alchemy, requires winds of magic). As above.
6. Lore of beasts. (requires monster taming, requires winds of magic) As above.
7. Lore of life. (requires tracking, requires winds of magic). As above.
8. Lore of light. (requires Words of salvation, requires winds of magic) As above.
9. Lore of heavens. (requires navigation, requires winds of magic). As above.
10. Arcane Lore. Requires any one of the 8 lore of X techs. Requires education. Allows any of the elven archmages, allows any of the college archmages (with the appropriate tech). Allows channeling 3 promotion.
(Note; archmages don’t need their college. It is annoying micromanagement (that the AI will never understand) to have to move your advanced mage back to your college city to promote it).



Chaos line:
Spoiler :
1. Bloodlust of Khorne. (requires corruption of chaos). Allows temple of Khorne. Allows Bloodletter of Khorne. Allows juggernaut of khorne. Allows mark of khorne promotion.
2. Gifts of the Plagued one. (requires corruption of chaos). Allows temple of Nurgle. Allows plaguebearer of nurgle.. allows mark of nurgle promotion.
3. Lore of change. (requires corruption of chaos). Does not allow genesis ritual. Allows temple of Tzeentch. Allows screamers of Tzeentch. Allows horrors of tzeentch (weak, doesn’t require temple). Allows mark of tzeentch promotion.
4. Slaanesh’s pleasures. Allows temple of Slaanesh. Allows Daemonettes of Slaanesh. Allows mark of slaanesh promotion.
5. Chaos incursion. Allows Exalted chaos sorcerer. Allows the 4 great gateways. Allows demon prince.
6. End times. Allows the final game winning gateway.


Other Magic line:
Spoiler :
Raw magic. As current.
Lore of Athel Loren. As current.
High magic. As current.
Dark magic. As current.
Necromancy. (requires Eternal life tech). Allows necromancy 1, 2, 3 promotions. Allows advanced necromancy units (vampires, etc.)
Magic of the Horned Rat. (skaven don’t start with this tech, they have to research it, allows seers and skaven magic promotions).
WAAGH! (orcs don’t start with this tech; they have to research it, Allows Little waagh! Shamans and spells).
Gut magic. (Ogres don’t start with this tech, they have to research it.)
Magic of the Old Ones.
Arcane mastery. (requires WAAGH! OR Necromancy OR magic of the horned rat) . Required for various archmage units (grey seers, big waagh! Shamans and spells, vampire archmages, vampire lords etc.)


Future tech line:
Spoiler :

Advanced doctrines 1. Requires: Military tradition tech, requires fanaticism tech, requires engineering tech,
Advanced doctrines 2. Requires advanced doctrines 1 tech.
Advanced doctrines 3. Requires advanced doctrines 2 tech.


Techs renamed: Warfare -> military discipline. Warrior code -> warfare. Naturelore -> tracking. Tracking -> nature lore. Necromancy -> Eternal Life.

Techs added: Advanced doctrines 1, advanced doctrines 2, advanced doctrines 3. Ancient lore (merge of chronicles, contemplation). Tactics. Advanced archery. Necromancy. Elemental Mastery (elemental magic archmage tech). Arcane lore (winds magic archmage unit). Arcane mastery (“other” magic archmage tech.)

Techs removed. Herblore (merged with naturelore). Festivals. Brewing (merged with crafting). Chronicles. Contemplation. Bloodbowl. Flight (merged with steampower). Gromrilsmithing. Dwarven ingenuity. Runesmithing. Master of Ice.



Luxury goods:
Revert all luxury goods to give base bonuses. All happy luxuries give +1 happy. All health luxuries give +1 health.

Building stats.
Spoiler :

All as current, except:
Elder council: +2 beakers. Allows 1 citizen to be converted to sage. (No happy bonus with mysticism tech).
Coven: +1 unhappy. +2 xp for arcane units. +1 happy with Winds of Magic tech. +1 happy with mysticism civic.
Tanner. +1 unhealth. +5% commerce with furs. +5% commerce with deer. +1 free specialist per pasture.
Marketplace. Allows 1 citizen to be converted to merchant. +25% commerce. +2 gold with currency.
Library. Allows 1 citizen to be converted to sage. +25% beakers.
University. Requires library. +25% GPP rate. Allows 2 citizens to be coverted to sage. +25% beakers.
Stable: +2 free xp for mounted units, +2 free xp for chariot units.
Dungeon: -25% war weariness. +4 espionage. Can turn 2 citizens into spy. -50% anger from sacrificing population.
Grocer: Requires marketplace. +25% commerce. Can convert 1 citizen into merchant. +1 health from banana, olives, spices, sugar.
Inn. Requires crafting tech. Adds +1 trade route. Adds +25% trade route yield. Adds +2 espionage. Can convert 1 citizen to merchant. +10 to crime rate. +10% commerce with currency. +1 health with barley. Hammer cost: 80.
Harbor. Water tiles +1 food, +1 health from clam, crab, fish. +25% trade-route yield.
Lighthouse: +1 trade route. +50% trade route yield. +50% foreign trade route with Navigation.
Herbalist: +1 heath, +1 health with pipeweed. +1 gold with tea. Heals units extra +10% per turn.
Mastersmith: +10% military production. Allows meteoric iron promotion (with meteoric iron resource). Allows steel weapons promotion (with steel tech, with iron resource).

Buildings eliminated:
Tavern. (merged with Inn).
City walls (just use castle).
High walls (just use citadel).
Wheelwright (merge with stable).
Carnival.
Gallows (merged with dungeon).
Joust.
Cannon foundry.
Aqueduct
Customs house (merge with lighthouse)

 
Wow, that is a lot of changes - I liked many of the new promotions, though actually liked some parts of your first version better which is more of a gradual revision of how things currently are.

I think Festivals, Flight, Ice, Bloodbowl, Gromsmithing etc wouldn't be missed. Brewing could stay since Crafting's already attractive with cottages, and its interesting how some resources can get unlocked gradually, changing your research for each game depending on surroundings. Chronicles/ Contemplation don't necessarily have to go - maybe you could build Elder Councils at +1:science: with Chronicles and get to +2 with Contemplation. Carnival and maybe Gallows could easily go; the others have some function and enable city specialization; there's some role for cheap early walls before later access to Castles (maybe rename to Palisade?)

I guess having played it more I feel like a lot of what's in place is actually not that terrible, and can be best improved by making some more gradual adjustments and testing how they work out. I'd also feel discouraged implementing things not knowing if they'd be totally redone/removed in an extensive rework. I wouldn't want too many of the buildings to get merged and removed; it's good that not all of them will get built in each city or every game rather than general-purpose buildings you see everywhere. I did like almost all the things you added onto the existing mod (metals promotions, arcane lore etc.) I think having some degree of unit line specialization is not bad, as long as you work in the soft-counter unit bonuses to encourage combined arms, and the tech costs accelerate to give diminishing returns to overinvestment in a single line. I'd also support trying many of the buildings with a percentage rather than an absolute bonus. I think the contribution of the Market was underestimated, with all tech bonuses it gives several times the straight gold bonus of any other basic building and as much as some Wonders.
 
Brewing could stay since Crafting's already attractive with cottages, and its interesting how some resources can get unlocked gradually, changing your research for each game depending on surroundings

I agree that gradual resource unlock is nice, and that its nice to have different tech lines based on surrounding resources. I think a lot of the complaint is that brewing is a deadend tech (well, it just goes to bloodbowl).
I could go either way on brewing, whatever the consensus is. You could even put brewery/winery into ancient lore.

Chronicles/ Contemplation don't necessarily have to go - maybe you could build Elder Councils at +1 with Chronicles and get to +2 with Contemplation

I think merging these is a good idea; they're just not different or interesting enough to warrant two separate techs.
there's some role for cheap early walls before later access to Castles (maybe rename to Palisade?)

I'd support a palisade-type building, say a cheap 10% wall at masonry?
As it stands I'm fairly sure that the interaction between structure and cultural defenses isn't working properly (ie its bugged). This I think should defniitely work like in FFH; low defenses from culture, which stacks which defenses from buildings.

I'd also feel discouraged implementing things not knowing if they'd be totally redone/removed in an extensive rework.

This is why we should agree among us on a final version before implementing anything.
I wouldn't want too many of the buildings to get merged and removed;

Speak up for anything specifically that you want saved!

think the contribution of the Market was underestimated, with all tech bonuses it gives several times the straight gold bonus of any other basic building and as much as some Wonders.

Absolutely, the market got too strong. Also the plus bonuses mean every building is worth building everywhere, which isn't necessarily desirable.
 
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