Ideas for SGTOM 15

I. Larkin · Apr 13, 2009

Antique Democracy.
In fact Democracy was very early in Greece. But in C3C it is not often appears as goverment of human player.
Two optional Techs + few turns Anarchy and not many benefits vs Republic make it unpractical.

Can we test if Democracy good and if good than what good for?

So row idea is: player start from Democracy type government and stay as long as team want.

Another topics – variants: (just for discussion)

1) We know “Democracy “ as advances and may build Shakespeare “soon”.
Also can give it to AIs and have "Antique Democratic World"

2) Have 4 possible victory condition; team will decide which may be faster: Domination, Conquest, Diplomatic, or 20k culture.

At Deity Diplomatic and Military VC almost equal in time, but 20 may be reduced down to 10 or 12, lets discuss.

3) Remove Military tradition as a technology at all. Cavalry's Army in human hand is too strong, makes the rest of technology unnecessary.

eldar · Apr 13, 2009

How about simply swapping Republic and Democracy in the tech tree, and see how that affects the games?

I. Larkin · Apr 13, 2009

eldar said:
How about simply swapping Republic and Democracy in the tech tree, and see how that affects the games?

Very little, I think. Idea to start "from Democracy" also is to avoid this sling hussel.
Republic sling is too strong and unpredictable event for SGTOM.

krakedhalo · Apr 21, 2009

Not related to Larkin's idea, but something that might be interesting based on other SG idea threads:

One slider set to 100% for the entire game, but teams decide whether they want 100% sci, tax, or lux.

CommandoBob · Apr 21, 2009

I like the idea of starting in Democracy. I wish I had thought of it!

But I think it needs something to spice it up.

Random Thoughts
Always War in Democracy?

Culture victory with a non-REL and non-SCI civ?

Conquer the world?

Aztecs and Democracy-Forever seems like a suitably odd combination. Aztecs building the UN seems just bizarre.

Lanzelot · Apr 21, 2009

I. Larkin said:
and not many benefits vs Republic make it unpractical.

How about we remove Republic from the tech tree? That would also remove the "chance-factor slingshot".

I. Larkin said:
3) Remove Military tradition as a technology at all. Cavalry's Army in human hand is too strong, makes the rest of technology unnecessary.

We could allow only UN and spaceship victory? That would ensure a long tech game, where switching to Democracy may be worth-while.

Another idea would be to "enhance" Democracy a bit (e.g. one extra commerce per tile), so that it would be really superior to Republic. (But that may be adverse to I.Larkin's original idea to find out, whether Democracy can be good for anything?!)

Regards, Lanzelot

Più Freddo · Apr 22, 2009

I. Larkin said:
Antique Democracy.

Excellent idea!

I. Larkin · Apr 22, 2009

krakedhalo said:
Not related to Larkin's idea, but something that might be interesting based on other SG idea threads:

One slider set to 100% for the entire game, but teams decide whether they want 100% sci, tax, or lux.

Well it was a ignas idea for SG, Deity (100% Sci), but nobody took a risk. I think 100% Tax much better for team and will be similar to zero research.

CommandoBob said:
I like the idea of starting in Democracy. I wish I had thought of it!

But I think it needs something to spice it up.

Random Thoughts
Always War in Democracy?

Culture victory with a non-REL and non-SCI civ?

Conquer the world?

Aztecs and Democracy-Forever seems like a suitably odd combination. Aztecs building the UN seems just bizarre.

AWE[D][D], Democracy will be terrible, you know govement collapses periodically at Democracy.
Culture will take a very long time, may be boring.

Conquer the world?

better, but it is "narrow goal". I'd like to give a choise for a team.

I. Larkin · Apr 22, 2009

Lanzelot said:
1) How about we remove Republic from the tech tree? That would also remove the "chance-factor slingshot".

2) We could allow only UN and spaceship victory? That would ensure a long tech game, where switching to Democracy may be worth-while.

1) Good idea, but we may fell to Monarchy as a result. I'd like to have Democracy "at once" for rapid expanssion. Feudalism at SGTOM12 from the begining made a very fresh feeling.
2) "Forsed" UN or spaceship VC a bit boring, as it gives startegy "predetermined". I'd like to have all, like in normal game. Space obviously impossible to compeat with UN.
If reduce 20k to 10, say, culture may be also considered.

Lanzelot · Apr 23, 2009

I. Larkin said:
I'd like to have all, like in normal game.

I see. In that case you also need to consider the following: if you allow all victory conditions, then everybody will do Domination...

So we need a way to make the other VCs competitive. For example:

We are not allowed to declare war, only defend ourselves (like good Democracies do, don't they... )
They only allowed government is Democracy, so if a team does too much war, they will constantly fall into anarchy...
We are not allowed to lead war against other Democracies, only against the "axis of evil" (Monarchy, Feudalism, Fascism, Communism...). All AIs initially start with Democracy. If another Democracy attacks us, we are only allowed to defend, not enter their territory.
10K appears to easy to me. Perhaps 15K?

Just a few ideas. Don't know, how practical they are.

Lanzelot

krakedhalo · Apr 26, 2009

Obviously I haven't been around very long, and can't find many old SGOTM's in the forums, but how about a VC other than the prepackaged ones - say, first team to 100 cities, or first to 100k gold?

These could be combined with an early Democracy start, and seem like they'd allow for a variety of strategies.

denyd · Apr 26, 2009

I'm currently playing in a PBEM where all tribes can build every unit. The discussions over whether to build GS, Legions or Immortals would be quite interesting not to mention the discussions at Chivalry. Possibly played at Demi-God with a Military victory condition. I doubt we'd get to Siphai, but it would be a very bloody game.

AlanH · Apr 27, 2009

krakedhalo said:
Obviously I haven't been around very long, and can't find many old SGOTM's in the forums, but how about a VC other than the prepackaged ones - say, first team to 100 cities, or first to 100k gold?

These could be combined with an early Democracy start, and seem like they'd allow for a variety of strategies.

They are all here. Change the listing criteria at the top of the subforum list to show threads "From the Beginning". It defaults to "From the Last 100 Days".

We have had specific VCs in the past, but not the ones you suggest.

Lanzelot · Apr 27, 2009

denyd said:
Possibly played at Demi-God with a Military victory condition. I doubt we'd get to Siphai, but it would be a very bloody game.

I begin to like I.Larkin's original idea of "exploring the capabilities of Democracy". And my feeling tells me that Democracy should be "peaceful"... So I think we should setup the game in such a way that the "peaceful builders" will have a good chance at winning it. We have the military games month after month in the GOTM, so a peaceful game would be quite nice for a change...!

In fact, before I found civfanatics, I had been using Democracy and Communism quite a lot in my games. But in order to be successful in the GOTMs, it is most often "Despotism --> Republic slingshot --> Build enough horses --> Game over"... I would really like to play a game once in a while, where you only have a chance of winning, if you set up a strategically sound infrastructure.

This means we need to make sure that military is not a decisive factor. (Because the human player will always be much superior to the AI on military terms.) This could be achieved by two things:

Forbid wars of aggression (as I suggested earlier). But this would turn the game most probably into a competition of "who is the best in making the AI furious and enticing them into declaring war"...
Replace the spearman with the rifleman (but keep the 20 shield cost) This would invalidate the entire horseman->knight->cavalry strategy and put emphasis on defense instead of offense (meaning: it does no longer pay of to be the bad guy (=attacker), as for once the good guy (defender) will win almost any war.)

Cheers, Lanzelot

Più Freddo · Apr 28, 2009

Lanzelot said:
Replace the spearman with the rifleman

At least this is a better idea than a Gilligan's island start.

TheOverseer714 · Apr 28, 2009

Gilligans island starts add luck as a factor instead of subtracting. I like the idea of the AIs having a strong defender for the Antique Democracy variant, but it would need to be immobile, lest they use it for attacking. Imagine an SOD of Rifles in 2000BC.

An idea I have would be a 1BC variant where the human can't build settlers at all, with Conquest as the VC. That would leave city locations(beyond the first) up to the AI and take away many human player exploits, such as ICS and specialist farming.

Più Freddo · Apr 29, 2009

TheOverseer714 said:
I like the idea of the AIs having a strong defender for the Antique Democracy variant

If all defensive unique units are available to all, would the AI then build Hoplites or Bowmen? Offensive, including fast, unique units could be unknown to all.

Lanzelot · Apr 29, 2009

TheOverseer714 said:
I like the idea of the AIs having a strong defender for the Antique Democracy variant, but it would need to be immobile, lest they use it for attacking. Imagine an SOD of Rifles in 2000BC.

Well, I meant everybody can build rifles, including us... So we are defended strongly as well. If they attack our rifles with theirs, it will be no different than archers versus spears, so that should be ok, but if that's still not sufficient, we could make them 1/6/1 instead of immobile?!

AlanH · Apr 29, 2009

Why not just give a spear (and any other defensive ancient UU) 6 or 8 defensive strength points? It'll also look less crazy than having rifles running around in 4000 BC!

TheOverseer714 · Apr 29, 2009

Boosting a Spear to 1/6/1 would work, but I would still prefer them immobile because of the AI's use of defenders in their SODs. If a stack is defended by a nearly unkillable unit, even weak offensive units can be quite potent. The human player could exploit them even more so, guarding artillery stacks and pillaging with impunity. Especially if they remain cheap, having a potent defender that is mobile leaves much potential for exploitation.

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