SGOTM 12 - Fifth Element

BtS SGOTM 12 - Atonement

Welcome to your BtS SGOTM 12 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.

The heavens split open, heat poured over the innocents, earth spew lava in anguish, light shone over the earth for a short moment. Then darkness, despair, suffering, torment. And death. If the radiance of a thousand suns were to burst at once into the sky, that would be like the splendor of the mighty one. Stalin had now become Death, the destroyer of worlds. And the people of Russia turned against him in disgust. Civil war broke out and the once glorious civilization shattered as a second wave of nuclear fire rained upon the land. Mankind is thrown back to the stone age, with only small bands of isolated stragglers wandering the plains in search of city sites free from pollution. The vast knowledge collected over the centuries is all but lost, with only fragments left for use. As the last piece of modern communication equipment fails, shocking news reveals that the former enemy civilizations were not wiped out as believed. The survivors managed to reach pockets of relative low radiation to re-found their capitals. And guess what? They have not forgotten. Furthermore, rumors are that Stalin survived as well, and who knows what technology he has access to?...

The good news is that you have managed to retain the knowledge of Ecology. The bad news is that the opponents have most certainly retained advanced knowledge as well, perhaps even nuclear technology.

You are Catherine, the leader of the new Russian civilization. You have to start all over again. The earth is covered in pollution, and all other civilizations are at war with you. You must make Atonement by clearing up ALL fallout, getting rid of Stalin, making peace with ALL other civilizations, and evacuating the earth.

Thanks for this scenario go to Erkon.

Timetable
In order to avoid clashing with the release of Civ5, the game will start on September 17.

The completion deadline will be December 20.

Game Settings

The Start:


Click for a bigger image.

• Speed: Normal
• Difficulty: Emperor - but be warned. It may play a little higher that this
• Map: Standard, cylindrical, cold, low water
• Opponents: The six civilizations from SGOTM10 (Churchill, De Gaulle, Mao Zedong, Roosevelt, Gandhi, Stalin)
• Victory condition: Only space victory
• Game Options: no random events, no barbarians, no city flipping from culture, no vassal states, no goody huts. Aggressive AI and rising seas are enabled.

Starting Conditions
Almost all of earth is covered by fallout. You are in contact with all opponents, you are at war with them, and they are upset that you have nuked them. The map is not the same as in SGOTM10. You are land connected to at least one of the AIs. The AI capitals are pre-settled. All biological units have died from exposure to radiation, except your settler. The fallout will not disappear by itself, and it is not possible to settle on fallout (due to a modified BUFFY)

Goals
To win the game:

• All fallout must be cleared
• Stalin must be defeated (dead)
• All other AIs must survive and be at peace with the player when space victory is achieved.
• Teams will not be penalized for events outside the team's control, such as:
  • one AI killing the other before the team has the opportunity to prevent it
  • one AI declares war on team after the launch
  • one AI launch a nuke after the launch ....etc.
  • any fallout that may appear on unreachable terrain does NOT need to be cleaned up.

The teams are trusted to fulfill the objectives to the best of their ability, and any AI related events that prevent the fulfillment of the criteria for winning shall be described and forwarded in a PM to Erkon or me for analysis.

Awards
Laurels will be awarded to up to three teams who accomplish the winning goals fastest (Ie by the earliest in-game dates).
Wooden spoons will go to the team who finishes the game (win or lose) with the lowest score.

Notes

• Versions
  This game will be played in Civilization IV Beyond the Sword, version 3.19, using a customized HoF Mod 'BUFFY_SG12'. The installer for this special mod is available here. Unzip the downloaded file and run it to install BUFFY_SG12 into your ...\Beyond the Sword\Mods\ folder.
  
  If a later BtS patch is released during this game you will NOT be able to use it to play. You will need to complete this game in BtS version 3.19 before updating your copy of BtS, or create and update a separate copy.
  
  Mac players can only join in if they are able to run the Windows software on their system.
  
• Rules and Procedures
  Please visit the Civ4 SGOTM reference thread to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.
  
  All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.
  

Please wait until your team leader/administrator/scribe has reserved a couple of top posts for game admin information. Then post here to let your team know you have arrived.

Good luck .... You might need it

Index of Fifth Element turnset reports for SGotM11:
The linked post has a link to the thread which opens the entire page.

SGotMs results page

Game start: 2010/09/17 - Game end: 2011/01/20

01-t 000-019 09/21 (r1p1) - Unclethrill - part1, t.14 - AH in, first worker ready! - 4 days for the first TS posted is a record, i guess
02-t 019-038 09/28 (r1p2) - Havr - Fishing and Wheel in
03-t 038-058 09/29 (r1p3) - Fluroscent - 10/01 - Writing + first Library in, StPete founded
04-t 058-074 10/01 (r1p4) - Blubmuz - CoL+Math in, Oracle for CS turn 73, Revolted to Bureau and Caste
05-t 074-085 10/08 (r1p5) - Beestar - part 1, t.79 - Agri, BW, Currency in
06-t 085-096 10/15 (r2p1) - Unclethrill - Alphabet, Masonry, Construction, HBR, Polytheism and IW in
07-t 085-108 10/21 (r2p2) - Havr -
08-t 108-119 10/27 (r2p3) - PnpDredd -
09-t 119-135 10/31 (r2p4) - Fluroscent - GLib in, GAge from Music's GArt started, 2 more cities settled, 1 conquered, unlucky war
10-t 135-152 11/07 (r2p5) - Blubmuz - Machinery and Edu in, Paris gone.
11-t 152-168 18/10 (r3p1) - Unclethrill (part1) - Roos declares and get smashed, OU in (t.167)
12-t 168-181 11/25 (r3p2) - PnpDredd (part1) - some city founded, France down to an iceball
13-t 181-200 12/03 (r3p3) - Beestar (part1) - Lib for Steel (t.191), first to circumnavigate
14-t 200-220 12/09 (r3p4) - Fluroscent (part1) - Chinese war started
15-t 220-240 12/14 (r3p5) - Blubmuz (part1) - China have his iceball, London falls, Taj GAge started, Mining founded
16-t 240-247 12/18 (r4p1) - PnpDredd - WS in, England down to 2 cities. Astro+Demo in.
17-t 247-271 12/24 (r4p2) - Unclethrill (part1) - Roos crippled, Mao on ice - Radio in (but we needed SC more)
18-t 271-286 12/29 (r4p3) - Fluroscent - Roos and Chur on ice, Apollo 8 turns away, tech tree to be completed in 11 turns
19-t 286-310 01/02 (r4p4) - Blubmuz to AC!

Roster:


Blubmuz - UP
Beestar - on deck
PnpDredd
Unclethrill
Fluroscent - resting

Standby: Havr
Lurkers: Cas, Orb

Best HoF date: 1710 AD (turn 252), by Dynamic, one of the strongest players, mainly for Space.

TS 19 short plan: (save turn 295?)

Builds:
Spaceship
Research:
To Fusion

Strategy Key Points:

Oracle for CS before turn 80 - accomplished, turn 73

Worker tasks:

1) never turn on any of the city automations. If this is necessary, inform the team.
2) never use automated workers.
3) never promote a unit right out of barracks: the first promotion will be given at the front. Naval and air units are promoted to C1.
of course if a city is under siege, CG1 will be given, or C1 if not an archer/GP
4) never give "go to" orders which can go over your last turn. Better: never give "go to" orders for multiple turns if possible.
5) Right before actually play, please check all the cities and the units in the field.
if a city grew on the saved turn, it's to next player assign tiles and specialists - or verify if those accomplishes the TS targets.
6) Sometimes is not possible to have a clear majority on a decision. In case of a tie, the team-leader decides and his decision is definitive.
7) 24/96 rule:
7a) the player who's "up" must submit a "got it" after max 24 hours from the posted save,
7b) then post a PPP in 24 h.
7c1) Wait 24 hours to see any comment/proposal on the PPP
7c2) Post the eventual variations on the proposed PPP, to ensure the other Members he understood their comments
7d) play and submit within next 24 h.
This will be applied if there's no need to deeply discuss a TS.
In case a player can't play in that given time, it will be swapped with the one "on deck".
Better would be if he informs the team on his impossibility to play in the given time.

Fifth Element's Team Leader is Blubmuz!

Please also refer to

This thread (Viewing Threads)
and This other thread (Reference Thread)
for less experienced XotM players also:
Please Read: Welcome to the C-IV GOTM
and List of allowed & disallowed exploits & strategies. and this one for a new BANNED Exploit

This post will be periodically updated with the estimated finish date.
For now, we'll use the best HoF dates, just to be sure we can finish in time.

Hi all!
Welcome back to Unclethrill and to Havr, the only survivors from SG11!
And welcome aboard to the former Who Dat? members, Beestar, Cas, Fluorescent, Orb and PnpDredd.

Our first decision should be the Team Captain, unless we prefer to divide the leadership between me and Beestar, with different duties.

I think it's better discuss this before the game begins.

Unless there're other members who volunteer for a test game, i can take in charge the task. I prefer to wait to see the actual save, to verify all the relations between us and the AIs and between the AIs. I asked something in the rules thread, but there's more to know before start.

Our first target for this game is to have fun and possibly to gain new friends.
Our second target is to win a damn medal.
This is my favourite VC, but FE was already beaten by dozen turns in Space games.
The speed is not my best, i prefer Epic or even Marathon. At this speed even small MM mistakes, mainly at the beginning, can seriously compromise the final date.

As usual for a Space game, research will be the key.

Please tell us your time zones and if you want, something about yourselves.

As you can see, i'm in GMT +1, which is actually +2 until the end of October.

Let's wait to discuss the game to have all the members "checked"

Checking in.

Great to see Fifth Element back for another.

I vote for BLubmuz as team leader. He has done great in the past despite our consistant middle of the pack finishes!

So the first two things after the team captain vote are where to settle and what to build first. I just went through the description of each square that Erkon posted and I think that we should move 1NE or 1 NNE. 1NNE preserves the forest for later chopping, gets the fish but loses the rice and potentially gives us multiple ocean squares. 1NE loses us 1 forest and the fish but gains the rice and 3 more land squares. 1NNE also gives less overlap with the silk city site.

Personally I like 1NNE since we can better fit a second city down by the silk.

The second thing is what to build first. We have to get a worker out fast to start clearing the fallout but we also know that we share the landmass with at least one other civ and we are at war with them so if we don't get a warrior into the city fast we could have a potentially short outing.
I think that a warrior (possibly 2) first so that we can grow to at least size 2 before we get a worker going. We will have the unimproved clams and 3 unimproved forests to work before we clear any fallout and gold can be cleared and mined as soon as we get the worker since we start with mining.

Hi gang, good to see the new Fifth Element Who Dat (5EWD) team

- I'm living in Cambridge, UK, so I'm in the British Summer time zone. I'm a consultant (though in Civ I'm a builder ...)
- I'm happy to captain if wanted, or I'm happy to step back from that role.
- BLubmuz doing a test game is a great idea.

This might be the first time some of the Who Datters have seen the Fifth Element team rules, so I'd suggest that we have a look and see if we're happy with them. I've read it before and I think it's not a problem, as it's mainly about organizing the team, rather than dictating how the game is played. The major difference is being a bit more disciplined about posting 'got it' messages. I'd like to have pre-play plans as well, but not necessarily taking away all autonomy from the player. Fifth Element's discussions in SGOTM11 were ... um ... very, very detailed ... and that's something we were concerned about.

In terms of starting off, let's have everyone check in, choose a captain, and then spend some time brainstorming some ideas for winning SGOTM12. I think there are a lot of ways to victory, and choosing the best strategy will make a big difference. (I feel like we've missed a few options in the past, like drafting riflemen and building Privateers for SGOTM10, and building the UN in our own territory for SGOTM11. We've done well nonetheless ... but it could be better!).

Two more things:

1. Everyone should also check to make sure they can download, install, and run the special BUFFY_SG12 mod for this game.

2. We tried using a shared online spreadsheet (Google Docs) for some tech planning and recordkeeping last time. I think it should be useful this time around as well, and I'm happy to maintain it. If you don't have access already, can you PM me your Gmail address?

UT, you're forgetting we can't settle on Fallout.
I would like too to have the fish or the clams in BFC, but the only possible way is to settle 1NW (fish, but not coastal) or 1NE (clams, coastal but no fresh water).
Settling 1NE will give room for 1 city on the riverside desert (useless) to grab the fish and even for a decent city 2S+2W of the settler.

In case of NE we give away the best tile before workers, the forested silk. But i think this location is far better than 1NW.

Those sites will be avaiable once the fallout is removed by our workers, so we must settle our Capital in a non-fallout tile.

We can also consider to move later (but not much) the capital to the W, since it seems to be too not centered. Provided we are at the eastern tip of a continent, as it seems by the screenie.

Another option can be settle 2W, but i discard it.

beestar said:

(...)This might be the first time some of the Who Datters have seen the Fifth Element team rules, so I'd suggest that we have a look and see if we're happy with them. I've read it before and I think it's not a problem, as it's mainly about organizing the team, rather than dictating how the game is played. The major difference is being a bit more disciplined about posting 'got it' messages. I'd like to have pre-play plans as well, but not necessarily taking away all autonomy from the player. Fifth Element's discussions in SGOTM11 were ... um ... very, very detailed ... and that's something we were concerned about.

Click to expand...

As i told you in PM, those was NOT the FE style. It was imposed by Dhoom and Mitch and i would have changed for this one back to a more normal and funny way to play. Without forgetting that a good plan is always needed.
But the most important plan is the strategic plan.

In terms of starting off, let's have everyone check in, choose a captain, and then spend some time brainstorming some ideas for winning SGOTM12. I think there are a lot of ways to victory, and choosing the best strategy will make a big difference. (I feel like we've missed a few options in the past, like drafting riflemen and building Privateers for SGOTM10, and building the UN in our own territory for SGOTM11. We've done well nonetheless ... but it could be better!).

Click to expand...

Well, FE did better than WD in SG 09 and 11 and WD did better (for a few turns) in 10.

For the test game, i will start a game with only the opponents chosen, then i will wait to see the actual save to verify and reproduce the diplo situation, since this is far easier to set in Notepad than in WB.

beestar said:

Two more things:

1. Everyone should also check to make sure they can download, install, and run the special BUFFY_SG12 mod for this game.

2. We tried using a shared online spreadsheet (Google Docs) for some tech planning and recordkeeping last time. I think it should be useful this time around as well, and I'm happy to maintain it. If you don't have access already, can you PM me your Gmail address?

Click to expand...

I've received it and it's fine. It looks like a simplified Excel spreadsheet. The only problem is that the beakers listed are for Epic and not for Normal.

BLubmuz said:

UT, you're forgetting we can't settle on Fallout.

Click to expand...

No I didn't forget. I went by Erkon's post.
Top down, left to right

"Desert fallout
Plains hills gold fallout
Grass cow fallout
Plains

Desert fallout
Grass forest
Plains hills gold fallout
Grass forest
Grass cow fallout"

I'd like to settle on the spot 1NNE which is the top row plain which is listed as not fallout. But another decent spot is 1NE which is second row, second grass forest. The picture is deceiving so you have to go by the post from Erkon until we have the actual save.

I don't disagree with the silk being good but with animal husbandry and fishing, we can have two cows, clams, fish and 2 gold in the capital. And it is on the coast!. That city will be a powerhouse especially when you factor Bureaucracy into the mix. We can settle it on the 2cd turn IIRC so what is the downside. Put a 2cd city 2S of the settler's current locale and it gets 2 silk and rice. Not knowing anything else about the map, those look like excellent locations for the first 2 cities.

unclethrill said:

No I didn't forget. I went by Erkon's post.

Click to expand...

Yes, you're right. I've seen that post and i forget.
And the screenie is clear: even if it looks green it's plains tile, no fallout.
I think settling in place is a waste, so settle 1NE (forest) or 2N1E it's the same: we settle on turn 1 in both cases.
We can try a dotmap based on what we can see to verify which of the 2 is better.
A first impression tells me that there's too much sea on the plains, but i must think on it.

here is a version 0.01 of the test game.
one wrong tile already discovered, correct opponents and special conditions (i hope).
i've to set the diplomacy and the techs and i wait to see the actual save.
but this can be good to try some dotmapping, so we can save some day of discussion.

Heh, BLubmuz! Are you kicking me off the team already? And the game hasn't even started yet?? This must be a tough new team.....Or maybe you are just keeping me back as a secret weapon? Anyway, let's not FEWD!, if there is still space then I would like to play.

BLubmuz said:

Yes, you're right. I've seen that post and i forget.
And the screenie is clear: even if it looks green it's plains tile, no fallout.
I think settling in place is a waste, so settle 1NE (forest) or 2N1E it's the same: we settle on turn 1 in both cases.
We can try a dotmap based on what we can see to verify which of the 2 is better.
A first impression tells me that there's too much sea on the plains, but i must think on it.

here is a version 0.01 of the test game.
one wrong tile already discovered, correct opponents and special conditions (i hope).
i've to set the diplomacy and the techs and i wait to see the actual save.
but this can be good to try some dotmapping, so we can save some day of discussion.

Click to expand...

Couple things.
NNE - plain, not PH and no fallout (this is probably the one you already know)
We need ecology. We start with that.
We are supposed to be at war with everyone and already know them but we have neither.

Otherwise it looks great. After a couple of plays, I am even more for settling 1NNE. That spot is AWESOME!

checking in. my computer tells me I'm GMT-7 in Phoenix, Arizona. I think I'm the odd one out in the US. Most of Who Dat? is in Europe somewhere.

Honestly don't care who the leader is. Beestar did a good job organizing for WD. BLubmuz seems to be along the same lines for 5E. European socialists are good at organizing.

The 5E rules are a little stringent for my taste, but we had some mid-game slacking in SGOTM11 then rush, so we probably need that clarity anyway. I like more micro and testing in the beginning...I just don't want to get bogged down in it mid/late game. I tend to lose interest around the industrial era anyway.

I'm heavily leaning toward 1NNE for settling. 2 coast food (food+commerce), 2 cow (food+prod), 2 gold (prod+commerce) will really be a great capital in the early game. Yes, it will be limited later...but that is one hell of a jump-start capital once the fallout is cleared and we improve the land. And there is less overlap with the 2nd city.

More testing is required before I decide on the first build & tech order. Thinking fishing first tech though. Probably need at least 1 warrior first due to AggAI/at war.

General thoughts:

• I assume the other civ on our continent is far away...worker stealing may not be feasible, but we're certainly going to need more workers than normal.
• Anyone know the mechanics of AggAI and how it affects the AI willingness to discuss peace ? Also never played with rising seas.
• If possible, gifting Ecology to the AI would be useful for clearing worldwide fallout quicker and improving relations +trade bonus for faster peace. Or they may already have it.
• My experience with space vc is that building fastest Oxford trumps a lot of other things from a overall strategic standpoint.

cas

edit: Should we think about a EE since the other civs retained some advanced knowledge ? Would it work better than the standard fast Oxford + get AI to research & trade techs quick space vc ? I don't have a lot of experience with EE...just something I thought of offhand.

I'm not a European socialist, I'm actually a Canadian centrist who happens to live in the UK!

Though I think orb should be kicked off the team for his horrible 'feud' pun

beestar said:

I'm not a European socialist, I'm actually a Canadian centrist who happens to live in the UK!

Click to expand...

Canada has centrists ? Well then...I have to vote BLubmuz for socialist prime minister of merged FE-WD now.

cas

edit: ps...this is my dry sense of humor. No true offense intended.

Okay, political wrangling aside here are the key questions I think we need to answer.

What techs do the other AIs command?

- If Stalin has Rocketry it might be tough. SAM Infantry need Rifling as well as Rocketry, don't they?

- I would love to steal a high level tech like Rocketry from Stalin with a Great Wall GSpy, and then Oracle the following tech (stealing Fission isn't too useful as it only leads to Fusion, and Fusion also needs Fiber Optics). Not sure if this is viable, and of course it's a very long term payoff, but the beaker gain is large.

- Do our rivals have Ecology? If not, we can consider trading it to them to help them accelerate cleanup or to help end war.

- Can we even see the AI techs? For example, if Stalin has Guilds and we don't have Feudalism, we only see Feudalism available for trade. (The turn we trade for Feudalism, then Guilds appears as 'can't trade' because you can't trade dependent techs on the same turn.). So, can we even see if Stalin has Rocketry? A quick WB test should verify this.

What are the effects of the diplomacy setup?

- How much does it take to end a war with an extremely angry AI?

- How about these specific AIs?

- How bad are our relations? If it's -5 we have a chance of repairing relations. On the other hand, if it's -10, or if it's from permanent modifiers like 'you nuked us', it may as well be war for the rest of the game.

- Even if we do gain peace with one AI, we are likely to be re-DOWed because we're likely to be everyone's worst enemy, and because we'll still be at war with the others (most AIs love to dogpile onto a victim that's already fighting).

- Due to being everyone's worst enemy, don't count on being able to trade techs with the AI (except as part of a peace treaty). Due to the lack of peaceful times, Open Borders and international trade routes are looking extremely unlikely, and trade routes won't gain Sustained Peace benefits anyway. Don't count on getting happiness from trading with the other AIs.

- The one exception I can think of is Gandhi. He'll trade with anyone, and he may be our only friend. Still, having a friend will be useful.

- No vassal states allowed, so we can't force the AI to become our vassal and trade with us. (but we are allowed to crush the AI down to only one city.)

- How do we ensure we are at peace when we launch our spaceship? I assume it's by massively militarily dominating the AI so they won't consider DOWing us, even though they hate us.



other

What's the effect of rising seas? If we settle near the coast, are we going to lose BFC tiles to the ocean?

Should we use the AI to help us cleanup fallout, or do we want to use the (effectively crap) fallout-filled land to keep the AI choked? This assumes the AI doesn't have Ecology.

Is the AI smart enough to realize that Cultural victories are switched off, i.e. it will not build toward a cultural victory?




Overall, this is looking to me like it's actually a warmonger game disguised as a space race, where we'll be running a self-sufficient economy without much trade. The key is to beat down the AI early and keep them suppressed. But maybe I'm being too risk-averse, and the way to glory is to retain focus on teching into space, and crush the AI as a secondary goal along the way.