What the AI thinks of you - and why

Perhaps someone can explain to me, why Harun, who I'd only met via scout contact since he is far away on the other side of the Pangaea, suddenly went Hostile at turn 23 last night, reason being that he felt I was trying to win the game in the same manner as he.

LOL turn 23 and I hadn't expanded yet as I was doing a NC first start.
 
Just a guess, but maybe he rolled extremely high for victory competitiveness, chose to pursue a cultural victory, and you had more SPs than him? It does get wonky around certain edge cases, but that post should show there is at least some mechanic dictating the actions.
 
Perhaps someone can explain to me, why Harun, who I'd only met via scout contact since he is far away on the other side of the Pangaea, suddenly went Hostile at turn 23 last night, reason being that he felt I was trying to win the game in the same manner as he.

LOL turn 23 and I hadn't expanded yet as I was doing a NC first start.

Happened to me in my last game, Rashid was on another continent which i didn't discover for awhile. He was immediately hostile for over 200 turns cause "we were trying to win the same." Funny cause I was doing a science win, and once i built the apollo program and the first SS part, he became friendly. :confused: So for over 200 turns he was dead wrong about how I was winning the game? Also NO ONE declared war on me, EVER, the WHOLE game. I thought when you started the space race the world was supposed to turn on you.
 
Perhaps someone can explain to me, why Harun, who I'd only met via scout contact since he is far away on the other side of the Pangaea, suddenly went Hostile at turn 23 last night, reason being that he felt I was trying to win the game in the same manner as he.

LOL turn 23 and I hadn't expanded yet as I was doing a NC first start.

Same happened to me... and by that time, even I didn't know how I was planning to win the game.
Thats how smart the AI is, it knows how you are planning to play before even you do.

But it was an interesting read, the linked article was
 
Happened to me in my last game, Rashid was on another continent which i didn't discover for awhile. He was immediately hostile for over 200 turns cause "we were trying to win the same." Funny cause I was doing a science win, and once i built the apollo program and the first SS part, he became friendly. :confused: So for over 200 turns he was dead wrong about how I was winning the game? Also NO ONE declared war on me, EVER, the WHOLE game. I thought when you started the space race the world was supposed to turn on you.

I go for space 95% of the time, and rarely am DoW'd because of it.

I think those super-early DoW's are what the OP said: a combination of a far-off civ trying to slow you down, and doing it absurdly early because of kinks not yet worked out in the code.
 
I think it's just random to a certain extent on the very early hostility. My personal favorite was spawning between ceasar and napoleon on a small pangea with 10 civs on an immortal game. They both must have gotten +2 aggressiveness b/c they each sent 5-6 units at me ~ turn 45, a nice mix of praetorians/horsemen/archers/etc. I played that one to the bitter end, but my fate was sealed at the start imho.
 
the ai thinks im a warmonger, because I am.

Heh. :) Yeah, 99% of the time someone complains about being unfairly labeled a warmonger, when you ask what was going on right before the complaint, you get an answer like, "Well, I'd just finished razing 6 of Alexander's cities because the jerk attacked me when I had only culture-bombed a luxury resource away from one of his cities, I mean, isn't that ridiculous? Oh, and I'd annexed 4 city-states because they had stuff I needed, and invaded Gandhi because he founded a city too close to me. But the AI should see I had good reasons for all of it and I'm not a warmonger!"
 
Same happened to me... and by that time, even I didn't know how I was planning to win the game.
Thats how smart the AI is, it knows how you are planning to play before even you do.

Just another example of how utterly stupid that entire idea is. The first time a world leader got pissed at me for 'trying to WIN THE GAME' in the same fashion as they were, I just gaped in awe at how incredibly stupid it sounded. Still shaking my head at the devs who thought that bit of dreck up. They must have been tasked with coming up with X number of ways of getting you into trouble with the AI, and they ran out of ideas that remotely made any sense, until somebody had an acid flashback during the late shift and that's what came out of it.
 
Just another example of how utterly stupid that entire idea is. The first time a world leader got pissed at me for 'trying to WIN THE GAME' in the same fashion as they were, I just gaped in awe at how incredibly stupid it sounded. Still shaking my head at the devs who thought that bit of dreck up. They must have been tasked with coming up with X number of winning conditions, and they ran out of ideas that remotely made any sense, until somebody had an acid flashback during the late shift and that's what came out of it.

The AI declaring war against someone they view as a serious competitor for cultural, diplomatic or scientific supremacy makes more sense to me than any other possibility. Doing it on turn 23 shows there are still kinks to be worked out.
 
Howdie Guys

This is my first post here, I often read CFC but have never posted.

I am just responding to the posters who asked about how/why AI makes victory decisions and how they affect APPROACH.

The AI makes a decision for every other player (Computer as well), every turn, on what VICTORY GS it thinks they are pursuing. After doing this is then calculates how this affects its OPINION of you, which then in turn afffects APPROACH.

Factors that affect each AI VICTORY DISPUTE WEIGHT (which in turn then affects OPINION) are :
(1) The LIKELIHOOD of the GS (Grand Strategy) being correct; ranges include POSITIVE, UNSURE and LIKELY.
(2) The VICTORY COMPETITIVENESS of the individual CIV (this varies).
(3) A factor that relates to how many others are pursuing this same victory (and how likely their GS guess is), the more that are the more this weight will go up. [NOTE : I am not 100% sure of this one, but it seems very likely based on the XML, have yet to confirm through testing and log files]. It is therefor much more likely to have victory disputes on maps where you have added many AI's.
(4) Whether the GS matches your own.
(5) Possibly other factors, as yet undertermined.

Now one of the problems with the UI is that it doesn't really distinguish between minor factors affecting opinion and major ones. Someone COVETING your lands (essentially a LAND DISPUTE) can be a major affect on your OPINION (If you have built up too much weight in this measurement) or a minor one. There are at least 3 (and often more) THRESHOLDS for each mechanic, but most of them are all lumped in as the same in the UI.

An AI that you have only just met could have their OPINION shifted by the following amounts (note OPINION thresholds range from 50 to -50 - lower is actually better for some reason)

VICTORY ACTIONS
OPINION_WEIGHT_VICTORY_FIERCE 30
OPINION_WEIGHT_VICTORY_STRONG 20
OPINION_WEIGHT_VICTORY_WEAK 10
OPINION_WEIGHT_VICTORY_NONE -6

At most you will lose 30 points (which is considerable I admit, but also unlikely unless the game had been going for some time) but often there are other factors involved that are not displayed by the UI. I wouldn't assume that just because the UI states a single factor that that is all that is affecting you, as I can guarantee you it is not. Remember each AI has a BIAS towards each APPROACH, therefore someone with a high HOSTILITY will be more affected by ANYTHING that negatively impacts OPINION, or otherwise increases their HOSTILITY rating.

NOTE : War is also more likely if your GS is considered to be CONQUEST.

Two other points that people may find helpful.

The first turn you meet an AI you will have a NEUTRAL APPROACH. The very next turn all of the factors that you have accrued are applied (ie OPINION, WARMONGER, LAND DISPUTE etc etc). So this may explain radical shifts in APPROACH. Please note I have only verified this fact in early ERA's and have yet to do so in later ones, but I would be surprised if it was incorrect.

Unfortunately ANECODTAL evidence seems to support that every civ knows of all of your worlwide affecting diplomatic actions regardless of when you met them, and if it was possible for anyone to know about your dastardly deeds. In particular WARMONGER status, broken DIPLOMATIC promises, etc.

[EDITED]
Some posters have argued that this is in fact incorrect, and they may be right. I do not know, with any degree of certainty, at the moment and guess I have been too heaviliy influenced on this matter by what others have posted. I will endeavour to confirm in the future. (If my initial assertion turns out to be incorrect then their are a few internet morons who need their eyes checked). Eitherway, apologies for not labelling this as a mostly anecdotal assertion.
[END-EDIT]

People should realise that WARMONGER status is really only the AI's way of determining how wiilling your are to use force; don't get so hung up on the term warmonger as it is poorly chosen and obviously subjective. The more willing you are to use force to more worried they become. That is not really an unreasonable proposition. This is why when you go to war with someone, against a third party, it still counts towards the global WARMONGER status with everybody. Letting the intended victim declare the war certainly helps mitigate your status though. Return civilians to help balance any negative OPINION related diplomatic affects, this really helps. Also try to cultivate mutual admirations pacts (ie befriend several people who all like one another) and then stagger your DOF's to prevent sudden changes in OPINION/APPROACH.

For the record I am not here to defend the AI, just to explain it as best I can.

Hope this helps guys. Apologies for any typos.

PS The Diplomacy system seems to get a little whacky when you start adding too many Civs. Unfortunately most (if not all) mechanics are not scaled by the number of civs in the game. Something that I think should be done IMO.
 
Happened in my game; a few turns later the AI changed it's mind and went back to netural.
It would be quite some trick for the AI to know how I'm planning to win since I don't know yet.

Perhaps it thought my Scout passing near it's borders meant I had a strong military compared to what he had locally if all his warriors were exploring.

Perhaps someone can explain to me, why Harun, who I'd only met via scout contact since he is far away on the other side of the Pangaea, suddenly went Hostile at turn 23 last night, reason being that he felt I was trying to win the game in the same manner as he.

LOL turn 23 and I hadn't expanded yet as I was doing a NC first start.
 
I had something exceptionally silly happen to me today.

I played as Isabella on a Terra map. I was tucked away in a corner of the continent and had the Indians and the English as neighbours. All of a sudden, Germany (who were far away from me) declared war and tried to take out my cities with Warriors and Archers... -_- As I had some Swordsmen I easily killed them all, then made peace with Bismarck who gave me all of his money as he had virtually no army left. After I made peace, ALL the Civs I had met, including my neighbours who I had had friendly relationships with so far, turned Guarded and started denouncing me for being a "Warmongering menace to the world"... WHAT!? Bismarck attacked ME, I killed his attack force, made peace, and now I'm a warmongerer? The AI in Civ needs some serious work. :P
 
I had something exceptionally silly happen to me today.

I played as Isabella on a Terra map. I was tucked away in a corner of the continent and had the Indians and the English as neighbours. All of a sudden, Germany (who were far away from me) declared war and tried to take out my cities with Warriors and Archers... -_- As I had some Swordsmen I easily killed them all, then made peace with Bismarck who gave me all of his money as he had virtually no army left. After I made peace, ALL the Civs I had met, including my neighbours who I had had friendly relationships with so far, turned Guarded and started denouncing me for being a "Warmongering menace to the world"... WHAT!? Bismarck attacked ME, I killed his attack force, made peace, and now I'm a warmongerer? The AI in Civ needs some serious work. :P

If you would read the OP's post a few spaces above yours, you'll see that the fact that you were militarily victorious makes you a threat - and this is what "warmonger" means (as opposed to what you would reasonably assume looking it up in the dictionary).
 
If you would read the OP's post a few spaces above yours, you'll see that the fact that you were militarily victorious makes you a threat - and this is what "warmonger" means (as opposed to what you would reasonably assume looking it up in the dictionary).

Yes, in the twisted Civ5 world of diplomacy, where almost every player action other than rolling over and licking boots is deliberately weighted to make most of the other civs want to go to war with you, to accomplish the developer's primary goal of getting the player into as many wars as possible, as fast as possible, it makes perfect sense. As long as you keep that in mind, you'll do fine. Just throw common sense and reasonable assumptions out the window, when dealing with the AI civs.

If you defend yourself (and often your neighbors, bless their black, thankless souls), they'll all hate you. If you don't defend yourself, they'll all steamroll you. If you join an 'ally' to fight someone else, the ally will hate you for it. If you liberate another AI, they'll hate you for it. If you are successful in any way, they'll all hate you. If you are unsuccessful, they'll call you weak and gang up to tear you apart. You can give a neighbor free stuff and gold for nothing for millennia, be the best of friends and allies, and yet they will covet your lands and detest you for building wonders, and eventually hate you and stab you in the back for no good reason whatsoever. Sense a pattern, here? Hehe. Sense is nowhere involved. Reason is nowhere involved. They just made the whole stupid diplomacy system to make you hated and get you into wars quickly, because they made Civ5 a war game, and that's bloody well what they want to see you having... wars :-)

Once you figure out how to play their weird sort of unnatural hardball, then you can sometimes manage to avoid a lot of those wars, but you don't do it by using any standard real-world form of reason or sense, but by learning how Firaxis made diplomacy work in the game.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy Civ5, and in a lot of games, I play for the Domination win and go forth and war and kick AI arse like there's no tomorrow. It's a pretty good game IMO, for the most part. But just about every aspect of the diplomacy system, and a lot of the silly things they've done with it, makes me cringe and shake my head constantly.

A prime example of the kind of thing we've been referring to- last night, I was rolling to a domination win, and owned 2/3 of the world already, just finishing off the last 5 or 6 remaining civs. I completely outclassed every one of them. None of them would DoW on me, and they couldn't even get up the guts to form a possee and group DoW me. So, I just rolled up to the next civ on the continent, steamrolled them down until all they had left was maybe one or two tiny island-cities way out in the antartic or something that didn't amount to anything, and watch in bemusement as all the remaining civs group-denounced and then group-DoW'ed the freshly-beaten remnants of the dying civ. I'd make peace with the hapless beaten civ, and move on to the next one... same scenario... wipe it out down to 1-2 tiny remote cities remaining, then again all the other civs would promptly group-denounce and group-DoW that one. Over and over again, until each of them were finally gone. Pathetic. It must have been sad to be that last civ, with nobody left to group-DoW the previous civ's corpse with. As unreal as it gets, but that's Civ5 diplomacy for you.
 
A prime example of the kind of thing we've been referring to- last night, I was rolling to a domination win, and owned 2/3 of the world already, just finishing off the last 5 or 6 remaining civs. I completely outclassed every one of them. None of them would DoW on me, and they couldn't even get up the guts to form a possee and group DoW me. So, I just rolled up to the next civ on the continent, steamrolled them down until all they had left was maybe one or two tiny island-cities way out in the antartic or something that didn't amount to anything, and watch in bemusement as all the remaining civs group-denounced and then group-DoW'ed the freshly-beaten remnants of the dying civ. I'd make peace with the hapless beaten civ, and move on to the next one... same scenario... wipe it out down to 1-2 tiny remote cities remaining, then again all the other civs would promptly group-denounce and group-DoW that one. Over and over again, until each of them were finally gone. Pathetic. It must have been sad to be that last civ, with nobody left to group-DoW the previous civ's corpse with. As unreal as it gets, but that's Civ5 diplomacy for you.

The same thing happened in one of my recent games, though in completely different context. France and I were aparently both going for a Cultural Victory, but he beat me the the Christo Redentor. Babylon, who I had been at odds with for several long millenia was in between us, so, at the request of Sillyman.. I mean Sulieman, I Dow'd Babylon, took him down to one puny little city in the arctic edges of my empire plus one island city somewhere on the other hemisphere, and just when I was gearing up to attack France as well (and claim that which was rightfully mine) China asked me to DOW him, so I did, and took out his two big cities on my continent. After taking my spoils, everybody dogpiled Babylon and removed them from the game, then dogpiled France and removed him as well. I can't remember if I got the Warmongering Threat moniker or not, but it was funny to watch the AI all gang up on the little guys.

I think the funniest part of that whole game, however, was Monty, my near neighbor, who had a crapload of gigantic cities with no production on my coasts, who kept coming over every few turns to lick my boots and pray that I "Take pity on those of us who are weak".

ETA: The Diplomacy in CiV mostly revolves around DoFs and Denouncements, it seems. If you are have a DoF with somebody they will most likely ignore past transgressions while that DoF is active. You can warmonger all you want and they'll be fine with it until your DoF runs out, it seems. But once that Dof runs out, if you don't have several mutual DoFs and/or Denouncements, then you can expect a Denouncement to come from them fairly soon. Also, I've noticed that if you have a DoF with Civs A, B, and C, then you denounce Civ D, Civs A, B, and C, will most likely follow suit.
 
ETA: The Diplomacy in CiV mostly revolves around DoFs and Denouncements, it seems. If you are have a DoF with somebody they will most likely ignore past transgressions while that DoF is active. You can warmonger all you want and they'll be fine with it until your DoF runs out, it seems. But once that Dof runs out, if you don't have several mutual DoFs and/or Denouncements, then you can expect a Denouncement to come from them fairly soon. Also, I've noticed that if you have a DoF with Civs A, B, and C, then you denounce Civ D, Civs A, B, and C, will most likely follow suit.

I've had plenty of 'friends' denounce or DoW me long before our declaration thereof was due to expire... sometimes overtly my fault, to be sure... but other times, it was exceedingly lame. The AI makes no distinction between a good fight where you defend yourself (and quite often them, as well), and one where you are the aggressor. And heaven forbid you capture one of your attacker's cities (that they had just tried to shove down your throat) in the process... yer real warmonger fodder, then.

Anymore, I just completely ignore all requests for friendship. I never ever gained anything from one in the past, and they almost always inevitably caused more trouble then they were worth. If you declare friends with anyone, you automatically become enemies/denounced by usually half of the rest of the world. If not now, it will happen, before long. You lose good trading privileges with all of your new 'friend's enemies. Your new friend(s) regularly insist you give them your last 2,000 gold, or one of your key luxuries, the loss of which will put you in negative happiness during a key point in the game. If you refuse, they hate you. If you don't go to war with them on their pointless quixotic adventures whenever they ask, they hate you. If you do go to war with them, then everybody else hates you and you lose ALL trading privs.

Screw 'em all. There are no friends in Civ5, only enemies-in-waiting. Let them stew around without me, till I decide to come out and kick their ***es at my leisure. If they refuse to be real allies, and only the using, blood-sucking, backstabbing warmongers that they really are, then they can go forth and beat the world without me, thank you very much! DoF that, Hiawatha! :lol:
 
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