Civ 5: Civilizations/Leaders Wanted!

I disagree with the choice of these leaders: Mao Zedong, Qin Shi Huang, Chiang Kai-Shek, Brennus, Cleopatra, Wilhelm II, Leonidas, Aurangzeb, Hirohito, and Xerxes.

Chinese history is much more than modern history (Communist, Guomintang) and the shortlived Qin Dynasty. In between, there's Han, Tang, Song, Ming, and Qing Dynasties. I prefer seeing rulers like Han Wudi, Taizong of Tang, Kangxi Emperor in the game.

Brennus is too minor of a leader, there were two of these guys (the name is basically a title among Celtic ppl), one invaded Greece and the other sacked Rome, a medieval-era ruler would be great like Robert the Bruce,

Cleopatra is mainly of Greek descent and lost her kingdom, better choices in my opinion would be Akhenaten, Tuthmoses III...

Wilhelm II lost WWI, I'm sure Germans wouldn't want to play as him. a Medieval ruler like Otto the Great or even Charlemagne makes sense

Leonidas's achievement were minimal, there has to be better Spartan rulers, but I'm not too familiar with the history

Aurangzeb was the beginning of the decline of the Mughal Empire, he was known for his intolerance against non-Muslims, Akbar or Shah Jahan are my choices

Hirohito...I don't want to even explain why...even Meiji Emperor would be better, though Japanese would prolly be offended by having their monarchs in a game

Xerxes was a lesser ruler than his father Darius, he failed in the invasion of Greece. I prefer having his father or even a Safavid ruler like Shah Abbas (to represent Muslim Persia)

Please, can anybody explain me this faszination for multiple leaders?

Really, this isn't meant offending. I am simply curious! Is it only, because in previous iterations we had those multiple leaders? Is it merely nostalgia?

Because, you know, there speaks so much for the "One Leader per Civilization"-concept:
- UA and UU/UB/UI usually are related to each other. At best, there are synergy effects. (Mongols, England, Germany...)
- If not for synergy effecs, a strong UA balances a weak UU (or vice versa).
- A large ammount of work (= money) for a new civilization is the leader-animation. The rest is not so laborious (more or less). Why would you prefer to have all this work done for "a half" new civilization (only a new UA and new flavors) if you could have the whole thing for the same prize (a completely new civilization with new UU/UB/UI)?
- CiV tries to equalize male and female leaders (in numbers). I doubt you could find enough female leaders if you want to have additional ones for all nations. Just look at CELTICEMPIRE's list...

Multiple leaders per civ aren't worth the effort in my regards! Invest the money in more beneficial game concepts, please.

I'm definitely on the side of keeping UA's for civilizations. That should be the defining thing (along with UU/UB/UI as you said), not the leader's attributes
Multiple leaders would be still very nice though
As I said, I would imagine that with adding some kind of minor trait system, minor positive bonuses for each leader

Among increased replayability, the historical coolness of having more of the great leaders of the most successful civilizations, the most important thing is the different leader personalities for the AI
This, connected with the small gameplay bonuses for them, would be a totally different experience when playing against the same civ lead by different leaders

The trait system could be the same way as in Civ IV: Having 20-30 traits in a shared pool, and each leader has 2-3 of them
We can even have negative bonuses. Each leader has 2-3 positive and 1 "negative" trait

PS: I don't think your argument about female leaders is valid
It's cool to have as many of them as possible, of course
But less than 1% of the worlds leaders were female, let alone successful female leaders
I have absolutely no problem with adding say 50 more leaders to the game, all being males
Female leaders would be much more unique, and much more treasured in the game

Could you define "minor" traits? I am afraid, this is a paradoxon: Too minor and you won't get your "totally different experience". If they are big enough to be remarkable (Civ 4 style), they will heavily interfere game balance. You propose to open pandorras box here!

It would help do be more concrete, for the sake of discussion. What might those traits look like? There are 34 civilizations in CiV right now. "One World" might give us 9 additional ones.
Plese, try to propose 43 unique "minor" traits. For only the existing leaders! And then go on and find another 43 or even more for the duplicates...

My point is: it is easy to dream how nice something migth be. If those dreams are looked at just a little bit closer, they migth turn into nightmares...

First: the totally different experience would be mostly from the different AI personalities. Playing against those leaders. Traits are just additional bonuses for it, further differentiating the leaders. To have some difference for the human player too when playing with them

Second: I'm talking about a trait pool, civ IV style
Not a different trait for all existing leaders (to stick to your example)

Third: By minor bonuses I really mean minor bonuses
Might enhance the given civ's UA slightly, or even act in the opposite direction for some civs, slightly balacing them out

And fourth: this thread is not about Civ V

Say, for england:
A definite naval focus in the UA, same way as in Civ V
If we have 3 leaders, 2 of them can have some kind of naval focus (+5% naval production for example) as one of their traits, further enhancing the naval style of the civ
But the 3rd leader can be Richard the Lionhearted for example, with some religion bonus, and no additional naval bonuses at all

Couldn't the Devs add leaders solely as an aesthetic inclusion in the form of a DLC? I have never associated a Civs leader with its UA so I don't understand why others have to attach bonuses, penalties, uniques, etc to the idea of including more leaders. I would be completely content with three leaders per civ with each leader having his/her traits (warmonger, use of nukes, deceiver, etc) slightly altered to give you a different game against familiar civ opponents. More leaders in my view should help expand upon the games role play elements, not gamey mechanics.

On another note: when I played Civ IV I rarely chose leaders for role playing purposes. I decided on a trait and found a leader that matched it. I couldnt care less about the civ either, the two traits were it. Pretty lame. So, the idea that I can choose a leader for my civ for the sole purpose of aesthetics and not 'I'm going to win with these bonuses!' is very appealing to me.

Australasia/Oceania DLC Pack​

Adds new removable Terrain Features:
Mangrove - Found on Coast tiles close to Grassland & Jungle. Gives +1 & +1 . Costs 2 for Naval & Embarked units and gives a +25% Combat Modifier.
Bush/Brush - Found on Desert Hills & Plains. Yields +1 & +1 . Costs 2 and gives a +15% Combat Modifier.

These I have created for an under-represented part of the World with some fascinating cultures. I particularly enjoy researching tribal groups to then turn into Civs, and believe that each of the following tribal types (and those to follow over the next few days) closely represent and ultimately respect the ways of their real-world parallel.

The Koori (Aborigines of Australia)

Leader – Yagan/ Pemulwuy/ Jandamarra/ Windradyne
Ability - Dreamtime Knowledge - The Discovery of Natural Wonders gives & and additional +1 . Also, +1 from unimproved Bush tiles.
Improvement - Creation Art - Can only be placed on Hills clear of Forest or Jungle. Provides +1 , and also gives 1 if adjacent to a Mountain.
Unit - Woomera Bushman (replaces Archer) - Has a higher Strength (+2) and in addition to earning the usual Promotions, Scouting I & II and Survivalism I & II (Scout Promos) are available to the Bushman. After upgrade to future units, Promotions remain, but the ability to adopt them disappears. Available at Agriculture, like an Incan Slinger.
Colour Scheme - ((((O))))
Start Bias - Desert, Plains, Hills, Forest, Mountain

Former- Ability – Walkabout Dreaming – The Discovery of Natural Wonders gives . As stories of the land are told overtime, from Natural Wonders within Koori City borders increases (say +50%) with every Period (Ancient, Classical..).

The Papuan

Leader - Theys Eluay, The 'Great Leader of the Papuan People'
Ability - Land of Legends & Language - 15% of generated added to (as) per turn until (either) Writing or Drama and Poetry technology and every City gives +1 per turn until Globalization
Improvement – (Korowai/ Kombai) Tree House – Enhances sight range of any unit inside by +1 and the attack Range of Archery units by +1 also. Due to their high, sheltered position, they give the unit a +15% Defensive Bonus. The Tree House, having retained the Jungle or Forest it can only be built on, naturally extends the units defensive bonus by a further 15% when positioned on this tile.
Unit – (Dani) Head-Hunter (replaces Swordsman) – Focused on their trophy, the ‘Skirmish’ Promotion reduces an defending enemies Strength by 15% in Jungle, Forest & Bush tiles. Once the target is defeated, the Head-Hunter replenishes 2 Hit Points, having gained a morale boost. Slightly more expensive.
Colour Scheme - ((((O))))
Start Bias - Jungle, Forest, Grassland, River, Coast, Mountain
If overpowered, the 15% values could be reduced to 10%

Indonesia (including The Majapahit)

Leader - Hayam Wuruk or Gajah Mada
Ability - Multicultural Island Archipelago - Specialists consume a third less Food (-33% ) & each gives +1 . City-States give 10% more when gifted
Building - Aquaculture Port (replaces Lighthouse) - Provides +1 from each Coast tile & +2 from each Atoll & Mangrove tile.
Unit - Kapal (replaces Caravel) - A specialist escort ship, gaining +25% when escorting an embarked unit (shared tile) and the escorted shares . Also capable of moving freely through non-allied City-States.
Colour Scheme - ((((O))))
Starting Bias - Coast, Grassland, River, Jungle, Hills

EDITED - Slight alterations & new terrain features.
Constructive criticisms appreciated!

Your Indonesia is probably the most interesting one I've yet seen. The UA combined with the UB would make for a nice tall empire.

I agree with Eagle Pursuit - the Indonesia idea is awesome. What about having the Kapal give an embarked unit its movement, in the same way that a Hakkapellita gives the GG its movement?

Pouakai said:

I agree with Eagle Pursuit - the Indonesia idea is awesome. What about having the Kapal give an embarked unit its movement, in the same way that a Hakkapellita gives the GG its movement?

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Ooo. That's a good idea.

One interesting idea that has been floating around for Indonesia is having a culture building (say, amphitheater +3 ).

The UB would be exactly the same as the amphitheater to start off with. The difference then? You would only gain the bonus for having 2 or more religions present in the city: after that you would gain an additional +1 (or +2) culture and +1 happiness (for example)

I like the idea because it's historically in sync with Indonesia in that foreign religions strengthened the nation/empires and helped it to evolve into a cultural powerhouse, instead of religion functioning as a dividing force like it did with so many other regions of the world.

I went back in this thread a little and found out a few cases where different people brought up this idea (sorry, forgot to check the usernames but thanks whoever came up with these ):

== UB : Pendopo ==

Replaces the Amphitheater.
+1 Gold.
+3 Culture. Bonus increases to +5 Culture if City have 2 or more Religions.


Unique Building :
Wayang Theater
- Replaces Amphitheater
- 1 (or 2) Gold of Maintenance Cost
- +5 Culture
- +2 (or +1) Faith and +1 Happiness if there are 2 Religions or more present in this city (representing their weird, I mean unique syncretism.. )

Candi
- Replaces Temple
- No Maintenance Cost
- +3 Faith
- +2 Culture and 1 Happiness if there are 2 Religions or more present in this city

Thanks all. Which part of the World shall I post next? Africa or the Americas?
I have added some DLC ideas to the Australasia post on the page before, including 2 terrain features.. A Scenario with Indonesia & the Netherlands, or the Papuan too during World War II would be the next step. Perhaps if I get time or we work it out together, though such a DLC seems a little unlikely.

Pouakai said:

I agree with Eagle Pursuit - the Indonesia idea is awesome. What about having the Kapal give an embarked unit its movement, in the same way that a Hakkapellita gives the GG its movement?

Click to expand...

The idea with Indonesia was to bring a focus to a large population with a range of cultural backgrounds. The Aquaculture Port building is intended to give a Gold boost throughout the Majapahit period, for which a Harbour would also work. I have added your idea to the Kapal.

seancolorado said:

The UB would be exactly the same as the amphitheater to start off with. The difference then? You would only gain the bonus for having 2 or more religions present in the city: after that you would gain an additional +1 (or +2) culture and +1 happiness (for example)

Click to expand...

I agree. When I thought about Indonesia, I pondered a similar idea. How about this?:
Ability - Archipelago Empire - Gifts +2 to Indonesia & +5 base with City States met for every Religion present in the Indonesian Empire. Specialists provide +1
Building - Aquaculture Port - Yields +2 from all Coast tiles (better than the Lighthouses +1 ) and gives +1 from every Atoll & Mangrove (new)

SandFli said:

I agree. When I thought about Indonesia, I pondered a similar idea. How about this?:
Ability - Archipelago Empire - Gifts +2 to Indonesia & +5 base with City States met for every Religion present in the Indonesian Empire. Specialists provide +1
Building - Aquaculture Port - Yields +2 from all Coast tiles (better than the Lighthouses +1 ) and gives +1 from every Atoll & Mangrove (new)

Click to expand...

Nice ideas. The UA captures the essence of Indonesia: culture from syncretism via foreign relations. If they ever include Indonesia, I honestly wouldn't be surprised to see something along these lines

The UB also works well considering all the atolls and mangrove in Indonesia. Actually, originally I would have liked the UB to be a UI/UB "rice paddy" since rice is legendary and crucial to that region but Incas already have the Terrace Farms which is basically the same concept

Civilization: Timurid



Capital: Samarkand

Leader: Tamerlane

Factoid:

"Timur is regarded as a military genius and a tactician, with an uncanny ability to work within a highly fluid political structure to win and maintain a loyal following of nomads during his rule in Central Asia. He was also considered extraordinarily intelligent- not only intuitively but also intellectually. In Samarkand and his many travels, Timur, under the guidance of distinguished scholars was able to learn Persian, Mongolian, and Turkic languages. More importantly, Timur was characterized as an opportunist. Taking advantage of his Turco-Mongolia heritage, Timur frequently used either the Islamic religion or the law and traditions of the Mongol Empire to achieve his military goals or domestic political aims.

Timur's armies were feared throughout Asia, Africa, and Europe sizable parts of which were laid to ruin by his campaigns. Scholars estimate that his military campaigns caused the deaths of 17 million people, amounting to about 5% of the world population. On the other hand, Timur is also recognized as a great patron of art and architecture

Timur's military talents were unique. He planned all his campaigns years in advance, even planting barley for horse feed two-years ahead of his campaigns. He used propaganda, in what is now called information warfare, as part of his tactics. His campaigns were preceded by the deployment of spies whose tasks included collecting information and spreading horrifying reports about the cruelty, size, and might of Timur’s armies. Such psychological warfare eventually weakened the morale of threatened populations and caused panic in the regions that he intended to invade.

Timur spent the next 35 years in various wars and expeditions. The capture of the Delhi Sultanate was one of Timur's greatest victories, arguably surpassing the likes of Alexander the Great and Genghis Khan because of the harsh conditions of the journey and the achievement of taking down one of the richest cities at the time."

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Unique Unit: Amir. Replaces Longswordman. Cost: 120 / 240. Combat 21. Movement 2. Starts with Quick Study promotion; Earns experience toward promotions 50% faster.

Unique Building: Madrasah. Replaces University. Cost: 160. Maintenance: 2. Science: +33%. +2 Science from Jungle tiles worked by this City. + 2 Faith for all Great Person tile improvements near the City. City must have a Library.

Unique Ability: Sword of Faith: Receive 10 Faith as plunder for each point of Faith produced in the captured city and a small amount for pillaging an enemy tile. Each successful Spy mission causes 10 points of Unhappiness in Rival Civilization for 10 turns.


My new concept for the Timurids (the old one can be found in here). One of the very few new Civilizations which could potentially have a Espionage bonus and in case of Timurid it would be well deserved. As they were on of the first Civilizations to use Information Warfare extensively. City-States bonus represents the fact that Tamerlane conquered or forced all neighbouring tribes under his rule. Faith from kills echoes the legacy of Tamerlane seen as the "Sword of Islam" - converting most of the region under Islam and ruthlessly removing rival religions. Amir a longswordman replacement is a elite infantry unit in Timurid army. Having +1 movement it can keep up with cavalry units and earns promotions 50% faster as it starts with Quick Study promotion. Madrasah a Temple replacement acts like second Library in City.

Looking at my previous post, there's hardly any civs which could have Espionage bonus, but Timurid is one of the few and we don't have many Faith Civs either.

What do you think about the given bonuses? Any suggestions on how to improve it?

yeah, timur does make sense for an espionage ability. i also made a navajo civilization with one awhile back, mostly because of the whole windtalker thing. so far, there's only england that has any bonuses related to espionage, and that's just an extra spy, while almost half of the new civs in gods and kings have faith bonuses.

awesome said:

yeah, timur does make sense for an espionage ability.

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Yeah, Timurids were one of the first Civilizations to use War Propaganda effectively.

Timur's military talents were unique. He planned all his campaigns years in advance, even planting barley for horse feed two-years ahead of his campaigns. He used propaganda, in what is now called information warfare, as part of his tactics. His campaigns were preceded by the deployment of spies whose tasks included collecting information and spreading horrifying reports about the cruelty, size, and might of Timur’s armies. Such psychological warfare eventually weakened the morale of threatened populations and caused panic in the regions that he intended to invade.

Click to expand...

I changed the Civ concept a bit. Nerfed the UU, changed UB from Temple replacement to University replacement and revamped the UA. I think it is a bit more balanced now

SandFli said:

Thanks all. Which part of the World shall I post next? Africa or the Americas?

Click to expand...

How about Americas? I'm personally interested from Middle-Eastern and Asian Civilizations at the moment...

Rumors of a new expansion abound, so it's time to dust off those civ suggestions. Devs, step right up and help yourselves.

Let's start based on raw merit. They were the first of the global empires, and kicked off Europe's Age of Exploration:

PORTUGAL
Leader: Prince Henry the Navigator
Capital: Lisbon

CONCEPT #1
Unique Ability: Merchant Lane Monopolies. Great Merchants can perform two trade missions before being expended. Alternatively, they can be expended to create a feitoria, a unique tile improvement which replaces the customs house and generates +6 , plus an additional +1 for each adjacent coast or river tile (+2 additional with Economics). After researching Astronomy, Great Merchants gain +2 movement and visibility when embarked, and a free Great Merchant appears near the capital.
Unique Unit: Nau. Requires navigation, replaces privateer, and lose the pirate ship and coastal raider promotions. Starts with the supply promotion, allowing it to heal outside of friendly territory. When within or adjacent to a city-state's border, receive double gold from tribute.
Unique Unit: Bandeirantes. Requires gunpowder, replaces musketman. Can build mines and plantations. +15% when within two tiles of a luxury resource.


CONCEPT #2
Unique Ability: The Silk Road. Each city gains +1 Great Merchant point per turn for each luxury resource worked, or +2 if the city has a feitoria. Upon researching Astronomy, a free Great Merchant appears near the capital.
Unique Building: Feitoria. Requires navigation, replaces seaport. As seaport, and provides +20% against naval attacks. Adjacent/garrisoned naval units heal +10 HP per turn.
Unique Unit: Cacadore. Requires rifling, replaces rifleman. +10% when within two tiles of a friendly border. Has increased visibility, and while fortified within friendly territory the cacadore's visibility to enemy units is decreased.

DESIGN COMMENTS
Of the four X's, eXplore and eXploit are at the forefront of Portugal's strategy. The emphasis on gold generation can produce a very rich civ that may be wide or tall. In both concepts, there's a push towards coastal cities and naval buildup. The first design is more aggressively expansionist, while the second emphasizes defensively holding onto what you've claimed. In terms of pursuing the endgame, great merchants and gold both grant a stronge edge towards a diplomatic victory, but CS influence and money are an important asset with the others as well.

Behold, the Portuguese empire and trade route monopolies.


EDIT: Had a good suggestion from Eagle Pursuit about the feitoria UI, which I edited into concept #1.

Good ideas.

I think I'd choose concept #2, but instead of Cacadore UU I would go with unique naval unit; Carrack. I think Portuguese deserve navy unit and it fits nicely to the concept.

I believe this was your earlier idea for it:

MARDUK80 said:

Unique Unit: Carrack. Strength: 12. Ranged Combat: 6. Range: 2. Movement 6. Cost 90. This unique Portuguese unit replaces the caravel. It can sail through the waters of city-states without incurring negative influence for tresspassing. When a carrack discovers a city-state, the capital receives Great Merchant points equal to their gift of gold.

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I prefer Henrique o Navegador over Henry the Navigator as it just sound better.

I'm sure there will a few new Scenarios in the second expansion and hopefully Age of Discoveries is one of them. Surely very interesting one.

Thanks for the compliment, Marduk.

"Nau" is what the Portuguese called their carracks (the latter word is Spanish, I believe).

I remember the idea I had for Portugal had a lot of ways for them to generate great merchant points. Nothing against it, just eventually went with something less...well, esoteric, I guess. Eventually, I realized that a caravel replacement made little sense for Portugal, since the caravel is in fact of Portuguese origin. It's what Henrique brought to the table that changed the game.

Fortunately, G&K introduced the privateer, which the Portuguese didn't actually have (privateering was what the nations without shipping lane monopolies had to resort to), so the nau seemed a perfect swap-out. The icing on the cake is that it's unlocked by researching navigation, and it's very appropos to see Portugal steered towards navigation.

Would you not tend to think of the "Conquest of the New World" scenario as covering the Age of Discovery?