Was it acceptable to ally with Uncle Joe in WWII?

Status
Not open for further replies.
The Army was forced to deal with similar circumstances in the late 1960s and most of the 1970s in Europe. Once again, it faced debilitating cuts and lacked the teeth to impose discipline on its own soldiers. (Hence, for instance, the Yes, Prime Minister joke about American soldiers in Germany being stoned out of their gourds. It was about eight to ten years late at that point, since by 1986 the US Army was as close to a world-beating force as it had been in 1945 and was certainly no longer suffering from the drugs problems it had dealt with in the 1970s, but there had at least once been grounds for the comment.)

Thanks. I did had the impression that the quality problems within the US armed forces had developed during the 70s and lasted into the 80s. So they were instead a late 60s and 70s thing. You mention Europe but the US by that time was deeply involved in a war in Asia. Did the discipline and organization problems had any cause or effect relation with the Vietnam war, as some fiction often suggests, or was that kind of a coincidence? Did those problems had influence in ending conscription?
 
Every single response to you, I brought facts to the table..
I asked what you brought in last time, didn't get answer as usual.

In Soviet Russia you can kill your enemy and only serve ten years....does it make the killer right?
Contemporary Russia has similar laws. I'm not sure whether they are very different from the rest of the world. Probably not much, person who committed mass murder for example, like Breivik, would be executed in the USSR, and get life sentence in Russia. Of course it doesn't make the killer right or Soviet legal system superior to the others.
 
russians actually didn't like the outlook of large scale operations in Afghanistan , but they had this Brejnev Doctrine which stated there would be no retreats from anywhere under total control . It is undeniable that they had built a lot on "fear" , a failure anywhere could encourage others to test Soviet resolve as well . Their problem was in the fragmented society of Afghanistan , the Socialist Goverment was not working . Even before getting to its Atheism and stuff . Helped by a massacre of the families of Soviet Advisors sometime in late 1970s , the hardliners "won" and the operation was an invasion planned on the lines of the airlanding in Prague 1968 . The head of state was killed in his Palace , and ı don't doubt it was Spetnaz and Directorate V of KGB working together in the "removal" of the former regime by all means .

on the other hand Americans were not even into supporting the Mücahidin . This is a typical rewriting of history after the things happened . Nobody supposed the Soviets would fail to control the country , with their reputation for savagery , there would have been nobody left to resist . Only Pakistanis might be said to be supportive and they remained tied to the Peshtun , just to keep them away from running to Pakistan and becoming a source of trouble , a continuation of the British Imperial conduct . Saudi and Gulf support stem from unability of Islamabad to be responsive to other peoples of Afghanistan and America's need for basic intelligence and far fetched projects for a Green Belt around the Soviets . ( Though , the said Belt has been terribly succesful in America's allies...)

as it is Tajiks had their valley that kept their civilian structures out of the way , Turkic population was firmly with Kabul , Iran kept support to Shias to a minimum -of sorts, as there was a war going on with Iraq , despite Moscow's support for Saddam , Kremlin kept a modus vivendi- and American troops have enough stories about Peshtun powers of blood feud after their decade in the country . Stingers came to Afghanistan only after intel supplied about Soviet debates about a retreat and its acceptance . Funnily enough at a time the Soviets were finally getting into high gear about protected outposts , long range fire to interdict and light troops . Gorby might have been handsome but such a drastic action like "OK , we have had enough and a bunch of cavemen defeated us" takes years to implement ; and Kabul held until 1993 with quite a bit of the country under the Godless and uncapable Socialist Goverment .

mücahidin saw the Soviets out , but no , they didn't defeat the Red Army . We will have the US out of Afghanistan and ı have no doubt everybody in the US will deny any Taliban claims to victory .
 
in the r16 sense of the things , the attack oriented WP posture in Europe was a defensive move . True , Soviets were messing all over the globe to contest the fruits of de-colonization with the Americans , yet until 1975 or so when the US found itself in a crisis of faith after the fall of Vietnam , ı can't imagine Kremlin actually talking about a global domination , something they quickly gave up . Andropov would have initiated the Gorbachev Reforms right then , if he could . You know he actually picked up Gorby .

so this presumes proxy wars all around the globe with a comparatively peaceful line between NATO and WP . Yet America had far more options for militarily hurting the USSR , especially after Nixon's deal with China . If something was suspected , a massive attack onto European NATO would be initiated with the assumption that European -specifically Germanic- opposition to use of tactical nukes . ( On this thing , there have been some Turkish forum discussions whether West Germany could have "rebelled up to a point" to provide unhindered Special Forces access to NATO tactical nuke depots to avoid becoming a nuclear wasteland before Americans finally "accepted" the need for proper Conventional Forces instead of the Tripwire structure as the Flexible Response . ) A slice of land captured and held with hopes of political dissention to break up NATO -even America itself .

a long Conventional war , despite NATO allegations to the contrary would have ended in the utter defeat of the Soviet Union with all the indicators favouring the West . A total nuclear war , with attendant casualty figures was already out , right ?

though the real fun begins with what people assumed the other people had under wraps . Have posted a bit on Russian views on hostile Aviation ; ı have it on the authority of Bill Gunston , the noted Aviation writer , that NATO was in panic over reports of a Soviet anti tank missile with Microwave radar in 1982 , a Brimstone even before the US had managed the Hellfire , to knock out Allied tanks in the approach or in contact , available on such a scale that speculative firing would be the norm , taking out trucks , planes on runways , artillery pits and machine gunposts with equal facility . ı remember the Soviet Lazer tank in action in Afghanistan as claimed by an official US DoD publication , a classmate in high school would write to America each year and the book would duly arrive ... ( ı recently found a superb site which also mentions it ; though it is in Russian and machine translation can make it real weird ) Even funnier is the fact that the latest Soviet fighters were built to use NATO norms , you "can" refuel Fulcrums from American fuel pipelines and hang Sparrows on them too ... Spying certainly made it harder to have a clear view of what the other guy had . Too much intelligence makes people dumb .

this uneasiness with Conventional means led to massive Nuclear armouries of the both sides . Even if you could shoot down ICBMs , you couldn't stop all of them and there was no guarantee that a surprise full size war breaker could get everything still on the ground . And there were enough plans to use nukes in every scale . Iraq 1991 was a surprise for everyone , in the ease Americans defeated a large force . Except those who actually paid attention to what might have happened . ( And no , it's not unmatched , go 50 years into past and you will see the Wehrmacht essentially did even better in Yugoslavia in 1941 ) And armies actually need a few who are capable of paying attention ; that's how quite skewed opinions would go into warplanning . ı think it was Anthony Boscia who posted the Soviets thought they were outnumbered 6 to 1 in Europe . They sure would be , had Area 51 had a bunch of hypersonic intercontinental full-spec Stealth bombers , each capable of knocking out an armoured division with cluster bombs in a single pass .

everybody feared conventional war , on the grounds that the enemy could have something up the sleeve , nukes were much safer ... Something they were "sure" to win .
 
Use the SCROLL UP function, it's already been posted. I won't cater to you being lazy.
Used it.
Here is relevant part of conversation:
- I love your disembling. You refuse to admit you are wrong, so you just delve into ridiculous hair splitting and being obtuse. I'm not playing that game with you.

- What you do is reiterating already disproven arguments over and over again and repeat the same "I'm right" style arguments. It's not working with me, you have to argument your position.

- This argument is weak... you keep going back to it, every time I bring in new evidence. Did they teach you that in debate class?

- Which "new evidence" you brought in this time? Educate me please
So, your new evidence was that you are "not playing this game" with me, or what?
All the other your arguments were addressed by me separately.
 
I can only bring the horse to water... I can't make it drink.
So, ignore what I write if it pleases you, but then, why do you ask me to write more? It is not really a consistent policy.
 
I can only bring the horse to water... I can't make it drink.
So, ignore what I write if it pleases you, but then, why do you ask me to write more? It is not really a consistent policy.
I didn't ignore what you've written so far, I answered to all your arguments.
Just don't make false claims about "new evidences", otherwise I can ask you what these evidences are and you'll have nothing to answer.
What we see now, basically.
 
I didn't ignore what you've written so far, I answered to all your arguments.
Just don't make false claims about "new evidences", otherwise I can ask you what these evidences are and you'll have nothing to answer.
What we see now, basically.
Your answers where lacking one thing in many cases, truth.
Anyhow, it's been a blast.

Again, good luck in reinstalling one of the most murderous, authoritarian regimes in the world! :crazyeye:
 
Your answers where lacking one thing in many cases, truth.
Anyhow, it's been a blast.
You are not competent enough to judge this.
Your messages about state of Russian economy in 1917, as well as wrong year of USSR creation say enough about your level of competence in this period of history

Again, good luck in reinstalling one of the most murderous, authoritarian regimes in the world! :crazyeye:
I'm not reinstalling anything.
Good luck to you serving your murderous and criminal government though.
 
You are not competent enough to judge this.
Your messages about state of Russian economy in 1917, as well as wrong year of USSR creation say enough about your level of competence in this period of history


I'm not reinstalling anything.
Good luck to you serving your murderous and criminal government though.

Listen... you're sitting here telling people how the USSR wasn't bad news... and you're going to criticize my historical accuracy?
That's rich, seriously.

If the USSR was so cool, why would you not want it back?
I mean, unless you are saying you think the USA should be destroyed/broken up... because you prefer the USSR... so, how would you want the USA to continue but not the USSR?

Are you ready to stop :deadhorse: ? Or will you keep going?
 
Listen... you're sitting here telling people how the USSR wasn't bad news... and you're going to criticize my historical accuracy?
That's rich, seriously.
Hello again.
Don't make stupid mistakes, and you won't be criticized for them.
You was unable to prove me wrong argumentatively, and showed lack of education in the process, is it my fault?
 
Hello again.
Don't make stupid mistakes, and you won't be criticized for them.
You was unable to prove me wrong argumentatively, and showed lack of education in the process, is it my fault?
I made errors and learned a couple of things from you.
However, when you were wrong, did you learn anything?

Show me please where I said that USSR was "so cool" or awesome or anything like that.
Or that I want it back.
Well, you say the USA is murderous and terrible... so, you want us to go away, right?
 
However, when you were wrong, did you learn anything?
In this thread - two or three useful posts from Dachs gave me new information.
He has good knowledge of history and can respectfully disagree with people.
Fair point from Bugfatty, correction of my post about Vietnam war, I had to agree with him.
Also from Cheezy, Innonimatu and ace99 but they didn't disagree with me here.

Well, you say the USA is murderous and terrible... so, you want us to go away, right?
No, you can remain for now :)
It's not the country which I'm criticizing, but essentially foreign policies of its government.
It's not that hard to understand, just need to read my posts carefully.
 
In this thread - two or three useful posts from Dachs gave me new information.
He has good knowledge of history and can respectfully disagree with people.
Fair point from Bugfatty, correction of my post about Vietnam war, I had to agree with him.
Also from Cheezy, Innonimatu and ace99 but they didn't disagree with me here.
Hahahaa, ok, well, that's great that you've closed your mind off to anything from me. Why ask me questions then?
You talk about being respectful, but have shown just as much disrespect toward me, comrade.

No, you can remain for now :)
It's not the country which I'm criticizing, but essentially foreign policies of its government.
It's not that hard to understand, just need to read my posts carefully.
What's hard to understand if how you seem to think the USSR was better in foreign policy when it has been just as bad and worse on many, many occasions...

But, whatever, anything I say is 100% due to Cold War propaganda... and my ex-wife's family's struggles are imaginary (they are not in the USA, and never were/will be, btw), as are all the other defectees.

I like how you've backpeddled on your love of the USSR. At least you have some notion of good and evil in there somewhere.
 
If you get your entire knowledge of the USSR from defectees and horror stories, of course you will get a skewed picture. Would you considering Malcom X to be a good person to learn about the USA from?
 
If you get your entire knowledge of the USSR from defectees and horror stories, of course you will get a skewed picture. Would you considering Malcom X to be a good person to learn about the USA from?
When did I say my "entire" knowledge?
My point was he dismissed it entirely, if we must use that word.

The lives of my ex-wife's family was quite typical to the E. European experience. That's why they revolted against the USSR, after all... not because it was a cake walk.
 
Hahahaa, ok, well, that's great that you've closed your mind off to anything from me. Why ask me questions then?
I didn't close my mind, why you decided so?
I just didn't find anything new or useful in your posts, unfortunately.

You talk about being respectful, but have shown just as much disrespect toward me, comrade.
Agree, I read your first messages in this topic, and used the same tone.
It's hard to talk respectfully to people who don't respect your opinion.

What's hard to understand if how you seem to think the USSR was better in foreign policy when it has been just as bad and worse on many, many occasions...
Almost impossible to explain that, when talking to people who base their arguments on ideology, rather than knowledge.

I like how you've backpeddled on your love of the USSR. At least you have some notion of good and evil in there somewhere.
I expressed my opinion about USSR many times on this forum, including this thread. If you think that I've just changed it now, means that you either not properly reading my posts or seeing in them only what you want to see.
 
I didn't close my mind, why you decided so?
I just didn't find anything new or useful in your posts, unfortunately.
Due to closing your mind off.

Agree, I read your first messages in this topic, and used the same tone.
It's hard to talk respectfully to people who don't respect your opinion.
If it makes you feel better to blame me, go for it. You took offense to the term "apologist", and that's not my problem. It is a common word that is not meant to offend.

Almost impossible to explain that, when talking to people who base their arguments on ideology, rather than knowledge.
Yes, my ideology says, mass murdering regimes bent on oppression of its own citizens and those abroad shouldn't be excused.

I expressed my opinion about USSR many times on this forum, including this thread. If you think that I've just changed it now, means that you either not properly reading my posts or seeing in them only what you want to see.
I've seen apologist sentiment (not meant to be offensive, for the record), many times on this forum. I have not seen condemnation of mass murder. I've seen excuses and so forth.

Anyhow, it's irrelevant. You are entitled to your opinion.
My whole question, which you've ignored is, if I am such a poster from which you can learn nothing and I base everything on ideology, why do you bother asking me questions?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom