[MoO] ICEMOD: mod design, race design, strategies

Hah, ya I do declare war on everything that breaths... I'm am fairly certain that's a hefty part of the reason. Maybe the power levels of the computer are the factor to these elections, larger empires with greater voting powering. Likely the other half of the equation here.

About excess production, you'll get no argument from me that it would be worse the other way around. It's not a terrible deal to manage excess research, I just throw some researchers on a build project for a turn.

About elections, ya it would be a pain to wipe up every colony. It's just me but I never really finish a game. I play until I get the feeling from my empire size, tech level, and fleet size that I cannot be stopped. It is tedious from that point on and I'd rather start another game. I've gotten sky high scores and it really has no bearing on how good the game is. A tedious way to get a high score is to capture all the enemy colonist on the board. Boooring. I'd rather blow most of them away and manage a tight empire. Capturing colonists makes the game too easy in my opinion. Also getting the "kill shot" on an alien race is a good way to get more points.

It would be nice to at least boost the elections to something above 25, say 40 turns. I just wanted to have a command like like /noorion I could switch on for myself. I wouldn't want to impose my hatred of diplomacy on others.

If you're curious about the rules I play by and would like to challenge yourself, here they are:

-Automatic declaration of war on all encountered races
-No diplomacy or suing for peace
-No deployment of outpost ships into outposts allowed
-No use of planetary construction
-No assimilation of enemy colonists
-No utilization of worm holes as attack routes (I turn them off but no need in icecold)

Rules I used to apply but had to dissolve due to the increased difficulty of Icemod:
-No guarding of uninhabited systems to prevent enemy colonization
-No utilization of empty systems as jumping points to attack or defense

Cool.
and what type of races do you normally play?
you have a fav design or do you vary .. from your earlier posts i took it that UNI is played much?

If you're curious about the rules I play by and would like to challenge yourself, here they are:

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Seems I should make the ICE-X races available for you to play on the Cold map...

For Icemod the old power races of unitol and demolith certainly aren't the end all anymore. I've had the most success with Uni+Sub+2pro+LargeRichHW/-50growth-Rep. The production and agility of this race is explosive. The slower starting race that's #2 in the many races I've tried to match the first would be Sub+2farm+2prod+20spying+LargeHW/-LowG-Rep. This race benefits greatly from finding a democracy quickly, as you'd imagine.

Rocco said:

Seems I should make the ICE-X races available for you to play on the Cold map...

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You might be right, it's tough now but not tough enough for me to dissolve all my rules yet.

Pleasure dome is way better when I already have +100 attack. If I went holos I will get the positronic computers. Unification makes this a no brainer though.

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Was just thinking of your comment here, coz if you play Uni in a strategic game, then Positronic Computer is the only tech in the field. The interesting choice between a computer or the Em. Guidance System does not exist as EGS is not present in strategic. And this situation is the same as with Battle Scanner and Dauntless System.
Hmm, hard to take so may things into account

Hahah, and hence why unification is still so powerful even at its increased price. One of the great things about my old race of unitol+warlord was how I could dodge so many crucial techs and buildings for new colonies. No need for pollution reduction buildings, moral buildings, or even star bases. I would spread like a plague and in the earliest stages of the game I'd attack whoever I pleased if they got in my way. I've overwhelmed star bases with destroyers and taken out empires before turn 75. Easily said in tactical, not so in strategic. Many argue +1 prod is the way to top off unitol but I don't think so, that is unless you're not repulsive and "talk" your way to victory. LargeHW would be the add to untol+1prod but the pollution reduction aspect of LHW is lost with tolerant. Slightly inefficient. Or you can cleanly use your 4 remaining picks on Warlord which gives you the mighty 2 points per colony and more.

So all you need to build are eco structures, spys, and defense structures at the perimeter of your empire saving a ridiculous number of turns on crucial star bases for command points and arguably negating what is gained from +1 prod when you factor in your ships are deadlier as well as more numerous. Without warlord you're compelled to pick the communication techs which compete with great techs like battle scanner and jump gates. The increased accuracy from warlord and battlescanners was all I needed to hit most every ship I encountered. One mighty fleet can usually defend my entire empire especially if (usually) I get a navigator. I would always love seeing that Trilarian navigator specialist early on, sometimes in the first couple years. I'd keep him alive until the end of the game almost every time.

With the way things are now I just had to adjust a little. I get the tachyon communications with jump games and still end up with positronics battle computers. With the UniSub+2prod+LRHW, I still have a sizable fleet and they won't be missing. The huge early game production will mean more colonies, more spys, and more research structures to offset the lack of moral boosts to research which means I won't have difficulty researching positronics if I haven't already stolen battlescanners or some other battle computer. I can also easily produce the required star bases, but it's certainly more of a struggle getting the command points I used to have plenty of.

Rocco.40 said:

Was just thinking of your comment here, coz if you play Uni in a strategic game, then Positronic Computer is the only tech in the field. The interesting choice between a computer or the Em. Guidance System does not exist as EGS is not present in strategic. And this situation is the same as with Battle Scanner and Dauntless System.
Hmm, hard to take so may things into account

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One way to do the tech tree might be to try to have no more than 1 tech per field that is tactical only. You obviously couldn't do this for every field but it might be a simple rule of thumb that could make things easier.

Btw, I love how you added warp interdictors back to strategic. I'm not sure why it was taken out of strategic in the first place. Was quite the head scratcher. Sure I can defend my empire more easily but now I can't just use hit and run tactics to take out an enemy empire without ever encountering their defense fleet. Once they get them up, I must engage their fleet in an epic showdown.

I'm starting to wonder if subterranean is too powerful. I can't design a good race without it. 11 picks anywhere else has nowhere near the impact. Some players call aquatic poor mans subterranean but it's just not even close and only one pick cheaper. All planets will be substantially larger with sub, including the "wet worlds". Just a food bonus for aqua that aside.

Tolerant is good, but with this mod I feel sub is a better buy. You know how tolerant doesn't actually negate building maintenance? Is it possible to make this a reality? I know tolerant has been a culprit in the unitol dominant race but I really think its the unification that's the stronger side of that coin. In Icemod, I can design a better race with uni+sub. Pollution processors really aren't that far away.

Remember my critique on warlord and battle computers and my mention of ship offense and defense pick valuation? I have a comparison for you to show you how weak ship defense is compared to something I feel is better.

Would you rather have for equal picks:
+30 ship defense
or
+4 combat speed and +2 warp speed

+25 ship defense is 4 picks and close to the +30 ship defense lead that the "+50 ship defense" pick has over Transdimensional. It's just 30 ship defense. If there was a pick that gave you 2 warp speed and 4 combat speed without giving you any bonus ship defense for 4 or even 5 picks, it would be almost irresistible. Transdimensional is a great buy with your evo mutation and better than anything else in my opinion. I still wouldn't design a race with it initially.

One way to do the tech tree might be to try to have no more than 1 tech per field that is tactical only.

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Good suggestion and exactly my thoughts. Going to review the entire computers branch.

I'm starting to wonder if subterranean is too powerful.

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A disadvantage of trying to do everything in one package; Sub at 11 picks is a 'good deal' in an ICE-X game, but in the world of COLD where planets are rare it is def. underpriced. Nothing I can do .. maybe you can 'imagine' it is of higher value and then use less other picks accordingly

You know how tolerant doesn't actually negate building maintenance?

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Yes, I have even described it in the Tolerant text box, and you have now confirmed not to have read it. Right-click is the key word here my friend. And I have made such an effort to improve these texts

Remember my critique on warlord and battle computers and my mention of ship offense and defense pick valuation?

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No I don't really ....

I have a comparison for you to show you

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(seriously now) I don't quite follow your example, pls if you can try to make more clear.

Rocco.40 said:

A disadvantage of trying to do everything in one package; Sub at 11 picks is a 'good deal' in an ICE-X game, but in the world of COLD where planets are rare it is def. underpriced. Nothing I can do .. maybe you can 'imagine' it is of higher value and then use less other picks accordingly

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That is true.

Rocco.40 said:

Yes, I have even described it in the Tolerant text box, and you have now confirmed not to have read it. Right-click is the key word here my friend. And I have made such an effort to improve these texts

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You simply must have more faith in me Rocco, hah. I did happen to notice your tooltip. When I say "You know how tolerant doesn't actually negate building maintenance?" It's rhetorical. It's like saying, "You know how that guy just wouldn't stop talking in the movie theatre?" Ofcourse you remember, it's just a manner of speaking to bring it up.

I could tell from the way you spelled "favour" at one time that you are likely not American, perhaps Australian or British? I wonder if my American lingo (or butchery of the proper english language) is causing miscommunication because you didn't get my transdimensional vs +50 ship defense comparison either. Let me try to make it clearer.

Both are 8 picks so it's easy to do a side by side comparison. If I were wondering what to do with my 8 picks I would look at them like this:

Transdimensional:
+2 Warp speed
+4 Combat speed
+20 ship defense
or
+50 ship defense

So what does ship defense offer that trans does not? +30 ship additional ship defense.

What does trans offer that ship defense +50 does not? 4 combat speed and 2 warp speed. Its like a math equation, you cancel out the commonalities. -20 ship defense on both sides to equal them out as much as possible.

Transdimensional:
+2 Warp speed
+4 Combat speed
or
+30 Ship defense

So for the same amount of picks (whatever it may be), would you rather have 30 more ship defense, or 2 warp speed and 4 combat speed? Easy way to compare them to see trans-dimensional is much better and hence why I think ship combat bonuses are still undervalued despite you already changing them in the right direction. Perhaps it's transdimensional that is too cheap but I think most players won't sacrifice eco picks for transdimensional. Maybe someone else can chime in on this analysis as well.

When I get evo mutation, I will pick transdimensional every time.

I'll be moving to http://www.spheriumnorth.com now that I have an account there now. I like using a forum that's more dedicated to Master or Orion. Anyone else here, come on over as well.

you are likely not American, perhaps Australian or British?

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Well I am Dutch actually, so not writing in native tongue.

You simply must have more faith in me Rocco, hah. I did happen to notice your tooltip.

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Will keep the faith, no worries. Just I did not understood it as rhetorical. The tooltip explains that the maintenance cost is due to buildings wear and tear and not due to a race's physical tolerance to environment, which is why I responded like I did. No 'unfriendliness' intended. If we would change it like you suggested, to negate the building maintenance, then it would be necessary to price that into the cost of the Tolerance trait and it would need to go way up. I think the dev's tinkered a lot with TOL just before release, which could explain why the original text incorrectly stated that Tolerant treats all planets like Terran and also why in-game the building maintenance cost is shown as 0 in planet info screen and colony info screen. And probably they realized what an amazing powerful trait they had created (no pollution. no money spend on planets, all planets are Terran for max pop. size) and weakened it substantially. But that is just some guesswork about the TOL trait.

it's easy to do a side by side comparison.

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Ok, thanks for ver.2 much clearer now...
Need to add something to the overview though:

Transdimensional:
+2 Warp speed
+4 Combat speed
+20 beam defense
or
+50 ship defense
+50 beam defense
+50 missile defense

A not to be underestimated difference is that combat speed only increases the beam defense and Ship Defense trait fully modifies the missile defense as well. In my opinion +50 BD and TD are ok at equal value, although perhaps their use is quite diferent: TransDimensional is most valuable when playing a Blitz game and in that case the most valuable component is the +2 Warp Speed, which helps to reduce the number of turns needed to complete the blitz. Ship Defense has almost no value for Blitz, but can come in handy if you are creating a more generic War race.

When I get evo mutation, I will pick transdimensional every time.

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Agree it is a very powerful EVO pick. Not sure if I have fully appreciated this late game effect.

See you soon at Spherium then.


PS-

why I think ship combat bonuses are still undervalued despite you already changing them in the right direction.

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You absolutely sure that your English is up to snuff?
mean overvalued perhaps?

Ahhh you're right! I didn't think about the missile defense. That's not a lack of grasp with the english language, that's just being a dummy. Although I already bashed my american mutilation of the "queen's english".

I still think the overall gains of trans are better though. How many games have you lost where your fleet just didn't get there in time, or game you win when you out maneuver a defense fleet from intercepting you over and over again... until they have not one planet left? I will experiment a bit more with +50 ship defense though. My experiments so far yield very similar battle results with both abilities. Infact when I tested a battle with either or, I lost the same exact number of ships. Ofcourse, this is strategic we're talking about.

Rocco.40 said:

You absolutely sure that your English is up to snuff?
mean overvalued perhaps?

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I see what you did there. Snarky Dutchman!

I will experiment a bit more with +50 ship defense though. Ofcourse, this is strategic we're talking about.

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Just to clarify; when I said they are ok at equal value, I meant tactical. As I have little experience with strategic battles, I can not judge the strength of Beam Defense and Offense modifiers for this game mode.

Snarky Dutchman!

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Modders must be snarky

ICE 10l just arrived and there are many changes.

It is the first release that also takes the Strategic game mode into account.
Some techs have been removed from the strategic tree and a re-shuffle of techs in the Computers branch is partially motivated by this game mode.
Obviously I think this is an improvement for Tactical as well.
Notably, the Battle Scanner is now a Pre Warp tech, so all races will have it available. Consequently the Electronic Computer bonus is down from +50 to +25.
The Outpost Ship no longer has Extended Tanks but gets the Battle Scanner instead.

The tech tree for the Post Warp game mode has been fixed.

ICECOLD stopped as a seperate mod and only ICE and ICE-X remain. However an updated 'Coldmap' has returned as well as the famous Goodmap3 from Siron.
I have made both mapmods available in seperate download packages; a package for ICE with these two mods and one for ICE-X.

Changelog: ICEMOD_readme.txt

This is a terrific mod. I discovered it not long ago, and it is the sole reason I registered on this forum. The racial pick tweaks, the tech rebalance, the more competently built AI ships, all clear improvements that made the game interesting again for me.

But it does introduce one aggravating problem which didn't exist in vanilla and which is not necessary at all: it makes you depend on the whims of the RNG if you happen to want to win the game by defeating Antarans. Especially if you're playing Repulsive and the officer turnover isn't high. If you're aiming at Antares, having to keep managing your empire even though you've already got the production and fleet to end the game if you only had the Portal becomes a chore.

So I think it would be an improvement if, like in the original game, it was possible to get the Portal tech reliably. Putting it back in the tech tree would work, or making it a guaranteed gain from conquering Orion.

What do you guys think?

I have written instructions on changing the default tech from Death Ray to Dimensional Portal.
It requires a HEX editor and you only need to change 3 values, so it is an easy fix.

Look in the following thread for my post of today, Aug 21st:
Change Death Ray to Dim. Portal [on Orion Nebula]

Brilliant. It even worked.

Thank you.

Rocco.40 said:

I have written instructions on changing the default tech from Death Ray to Dimensional Portal.
It requires a HEX editor and you only need to change 3 values, so it is an easy fix.

Look in the following thread for my post of today, Aug 21st:
Change Death Ray to Dim. Portal [on Orion Nebula]

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I've been busy with other stuff lately, but do hope that you keep Death Ray and default and allow the player to change it for himself.

Oh and in my last IceX 10k game a couple weeks ago, I was completely crushed by runaway super Darloks with stealthy ship, many econ advantages and telepathic. My first IceX loss using one of my own super races, although I expect more!

EDIT: Darloks that game had taken over much of the eastern half of the galaxy but T170pw and then turned on me. I couldn't catch their stealthy fleet and they could overwhelm my SB's easily and then simply mind controlled my worlds. Soon they split into two fleets, neither of which I could destroy and I resigned T183.

Stealth and Telepath also can be too much for the AI's to cope with (as it was this game) if the Darlok can get the jump on them and take a few worlds and then get a huge economy. However, I've seen the same Darlok race not overpower everyone also. But this specific Darlok race is one to fear!