The Conquest Training Game

ainwood

ainwood

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Conquest Class Training Game

This is the thread that we will use for the actual training game. :)

Game Settings:

Map Size: Standard
Map Form: Pangaea
Temperature: Warm
Climate: Wet
Ocean Coverage: 80%
World Age: 4 Billion Years
Barbarians: Roaming
Difficulty: Emperor
Rivals: 8
Player Race: Chinese


General rules:

Consider this a first-pass, so if you have anything you'd like to see changed, then please post it! :thumbsup:

Firstly, we will play under GOTM-type rules. This means not using any exploit that you can't use in playing the GOTMs, as well as the other general conduct things.

Secondly: The general aim is to focus on discussions of strategies, just as much (even more so) than on the actual game-play. Therefore, I think that we should discuss the strategy, get agreement, then play the turns. In terms of actual playing, 10 turns per player should be a guideline. If something happens in those 10 turns that you're unsure of or think might affect the strategy or cuase a rethink, then simply stop and come back here for more discussion. :)

This game is for you, not me! I will act as a stand-in player when someone is away for a period in order to keep the game moving. Aside from that, I'm not going to take-over. I'm simply here to facilitiate discussions, offer advice etc. If you want to follow my advice, then fine. If you don't, then don't. I am not the worlds greatest player (although I can win on Deity). I don't pretend to know the game mechanics and the best strategies inside-out, so in the strategic discussion (whihc you will all contribute to), make sure you ask the 'why' questions. :thumbsup:

Outside input:

Sharing strategies and offering suggestions in order to improve our game play is what this game is all about, however too muh can be a distration. For any non-players who want to offer advice etc, please do so by PM-ing it to one of the players (preferably) or myself. This is simply an attempt to avoid too much information-overload and side-track discussions. To the players: If someone sends you some suggestions, please make sure that you give credit where credit is due (ie -> post them with a 'XXXX suggested this').

The exception is the GOTM staff. I've asked them to stop-by and give us a reality check occasionally. :)



As I said: any suggestions for any other rules (guidelines is a better word), then post them below. I'll get the starting screenshot up soon. :)
 
What about Turn order ???
Or do we all have 5 turns and upload it to see what we would have done ?

Suggest 10 turns per player. Which will help speed the game up. 5 turns per player just seems to short.
 
10 turns is the guideline, but don't feel that you have do 10! If you're unsure, do less. I don't think that more than 10 should be the norm, though.

OK: Before we start with the save file and screenshot, what can you tell us about Emperor level, the Chinese and the chosen map settings?
 
Lots of jungle, and rivers.
A single land mass. (So dont bother with sea units) (Trading should be easier too.)
Barbs a plenty. (Dont allow Barbs to Mass. S&D. Not making that mistake again. They can be troublesome on raging)


Q Do you Generally keep a Forest ? Or are you better of clearing them and planting a mine?

Q How much dose a single forest Offset globel warming? I had some trouble with this in Gotm31.
 
That's the sort of stuff I was after. :)

Yep -> expect a single big landmass, although there may be a second continent. The 80% ocean is high too, so the landmass may not be that large, which in turn means that each civ will have less land than otherwise might be expected => claiming land by whatever means will be important. The AI usually expands until all available land is claimed before heading off to war, so less land means that this will happen sooner...

As for barbs, 'roaming' is at the low-end of the scale. Shouldn't be too much of a problem. :)

As for other info: At emperor level, you can expect the following:

  1. The AI all start with an extra worker.
  2. They will also have 4 defensive land units (spearman if available, otherwise warriors), and 2 offensive ones (archers if available, otherwise warriors).
  3. The cost factor is 8. Therefore (for example), a settler that costs the player 30 shields will cost the AI only 24. When the human needs 20 food to fill the food bin, the AI only need 16.
  4. AI to AI trade rate is 150. IIRC, that means that if an AI values a tech at 90 gold, he will sell it to another AI player for only 60 gold. We have to pay the 90 gold!
  5. Citizens born content is only 1! That means that the first city growth person will be unhappy.
  6. Attack bonus vs barbs is 50%, so we still get a bonus when attacking barbarians.

And lets look at the Chinese.

Traits: Industrious & Militaristic.
Industrious means that workers work twice as fast -> great for early improvements around cities. When a town reaches size 7, the city center gets an extra shield, and I think you get another bonus for metropolises.

Militaristic: Get a slightly higher chance of units getting promoted. :) Also, makes barracks cheaper.

As the Chinese, we will start with Warrior Code & Masonry, which means we can build archers stargith away (if required), as well as building walls or a new Palace (useful as a pre-build). :)

Unique unit is the Rider. Same attack and defence as a normal Knight, but has an extra movement point, which IMHO, rocks! :D
 
Ok: Below are the screen shots of the starting location and the minimap. What I would like to see is a discussion on what the initial plan should be. Where to settle, where to explore. Do we settle on the spot, or move first? What should we build, what should we research. Please back up your suggestions with some reasons. :)

Once we've agreed on what to do, we'll let you lose on playing the game. In terms of who plays when, we'll just see who's available when the decisions are made, and use that to set the initial order. After that, just follow it around again.
trainingstart.JPG

trainingmini.JPG
 
Initial start location looks nice. I would move 1 tile SE to get the fish and the Game would then both be available after 10 turns. I'm gambling that there will be a river nearby so that we can chop+irrigate both game squares for a settler factory. I would also like to stay on the coast so we can build all the improvements and wonders that require it.
I'm no good at fog gazing but there appears to be something E,E of the start location. With a bit of luck it will be a lux (silks???, spices??)

Masonry is a good tech to start with as the AI civs value it. Warrior code means we can build a few archers and go barb hunting for gold and promotions.

My first build would probably be a cheap warrior for MP (since we only get 1 content citizen) then warrior/archer then possibly settler if we've grown enough. If not some more military so the AI don't come demanding stuff! The units will also be good for exploring and goody hut popping.

I'd probably set research to alphabet (since this is an expensive tech to buy) on a rate that still lets us make some gold.

I think we need to expand like crazy to even stand a chance against the AI bonuses and we need to watch happiness to avoid costly disorder. (allow governors to manage moods and emphasize production)

The industrious trait will be nice for that forest chopping (timed perfectly to help with a granary of course!)

Just my thoughts

Feel free to pick them to shreds! :cry: :blush: :lol:
 
No I would move my worker SE to see what is avaliable. THEN decide if I want to move to the fish. I wont move the settler around more then 1 turn. Getting your first city Established early is a must.
(As with most GOTM theres a nice WHEAT or FISH nearby for your first city)

Our location in the OVERALL map shows that south will be tundra and North will be more wet lands (Rivers, jungles and forest). Preferance will be expand North hopefully cutting off AI expansion. (Outside in expansion stratergy)

Build Order for Beijin
Warrior, Granery, then (warrior, Setter)
First settler is to link and road a luxury. Keeps our Capitol in Order while it mass produces settlers and Spearmen. (Granery is a most unless you find yourself on a very rich terrain)

Research
I go Straight for Monarchy. (Not sure here) But I catching up by the middle ages

Keep in mind we want to take FULL advantage of the "Rider" unit. Generally "Art of War" Wonder is a MUST. Bring on the cheating AI.
 
OK, first i would move our worker to N to take a first look to our main direction. (And there is something N,NW).
The settler should stay where he his and build our capitol.
One or two landmass and both not so big, means early contacts and perhaps an early war. So i think we should start with the militaristic techs like wheel, horse riding, bronze- and iron working. The others should be traded or searched by our self as well.
Three warriors for the start, two for exploring and one for our first settler who follows in the grid. Then a granary to set up an warrior/settler factory.

What think the others?? :confused:
 
Of course 1 tile SW would also include the fish and both game without waiting for culture... :blush: Can't believe I didn't spot that! But... that would mean losing a bonus grassland. Mmmm tough decision.
How about moving the worker W and see what that reveals? I also spotted that we are in a southern location so expansion North is vital. What if our second town could also take advantage of the game (so long as our wet world gives us a river!) then we'd have 2 settler factories. I think that my initial move to SE would give the capital the fish and the two game could be shared between it and another town to give 2 settler factories.
 
[unlurk]I wouldn't get hung up on the fish. Assuming that's salt water (which no-one has mentioned yet BTW) that tile is poorer than the two grass you can see now and the others that look to be hiding to the west. You can't mine a fish. All you'll get from it is a little extra gold, which is the least important commodity in the early game. Your early citizens should be given access to the most powerful tiles you can see, and that isn't one of them. My 2 cents.[relurk]
 
Well, I cannot deny that my first city is usually just a yeah whatever reaction. Not because I don't care, but because I don't understand. All of the micromanaging talk in the spoilers just boggles my feeble mind. It looks as though the ainwood and ALanH are looking for dumb questions. Well, enter Mauer. I have always tried to build my first city away from the coast (unless it is fresh water), the water doesn't allow for extra food untill harbor. And I try to set up a settler factory. I figure that the capital should be building settlers and the additional cities could be used for wonders should the opportunity arise. Is this right? Also I am confused about the food/shields on the city square. I think it is better not to settle on bonus like BG or game etc. That way it can be improved by workers. Right?
Anyways, I would move the worker SW to build road/mine on the BG. depending on how the land looked that way I would either move the settler West, or settle as is. I would build warrior, warrior, granary. One for MP, one for explore. By the way all of my comments are actually questions.
 
Some good discussion here!

I'll pick up on a few points, but firstl;y I apologize if this is going a bit slowly for people. I've been offline for the last few days. Also, the initial discussions are the important ones! Once we decide where to found our first city (and most importantly, 'why' ;)) then we'll move faster.


(summarised) thoughts:
mabellino said:
Initial start location looks nice. I would move 1 tile SE to get the fish and the Game would then both be available after 10 turns.
This would give fish (two food, two gold) but, on the face of it, would mean we would have more plains (eastern tiles look 'plainish') and less grassland (western tiles look 'grashish')

I'm gambling that there will be a river nearby so that we can chop+irrigate both game squares for a settler factory. We do have a 'wet' world!

I would also like to stay on the coast so we can build all the improvements and wonders that require it.This one is map-specific. In a continents or archapaelaog map, it would be a great move. But remember that this is Pangaea, so the likes of the great lighthouse <might> be less-important. The first city will also be the center of our empire for a while, and to minimise corruption we will try to build around it. Keeping away from the coast is often 'good' for this reason. However: We don't want to wander too far from the coast for now (waste too many turns), so we can think about moving the palace later. :)

I'm no good at fog gazing but there appears to be something E,E of the start location. With a bit of luck it will be a lux (silks???, spices??)Your eyes are better than mine! I don't bother with fog-gazing much!

My first build would probably be a cheap warrior for MP (since we only get 1 content citizen) then warrior/archer then possibly settler if we've grown enough. If not some more military so the AI don't come demanding stuff! The units will also be good for exploring and goody hut popping.All good points! :thumbsup:

I'd probably set research to alphabet (since this is an expensive tech to buy) on a rate that still lets us make some gold. Well, research is critical. Initially, to maximise expansion (if we have enough food etc), I'd probably go for pottery (for a granary) to get settlers coming out ASAP.

I think we need to expand like crazy to even stand a chance against the AI bonuses and we need to watch happiness to avoid costly disorder. (allow governors to manage moods and emphasize production)One of my strongest recommendations is to NEVER let the governer manage happiness! Believe it or not, this stiffles production, because the governer reacts before an unhappy citizen is added to the city. If you do it yourself, you get a turns 'grace' period, where that citizen produces food & shields. :) In a settler factory, this can be the difference between a settler every 4 turns, and one every 5 (plus wasted production).

Feel free to pick them to shreds!
I hope you don't feel that I am. You make some great points, and the idea is to discuss the issues.
Click to expand...



friendly fire said:
No I would move my worker SE to see what is avaliable. THEN decide if I want to move to the fish. I wont move the settler around more then 1 turn. Getting your first city Established early is a must.Tend to agree. I might move the settler two spaces, but moving the worker is a very good idea (especially for you fog-watchers! ;))

(As with most GOTM theres a nice WHEAT or FISH nearby for your first city)
Is the GOTM designer normally that nice! ;) This sin't a GOTM map... :(

Our location in the OVERALL map shows that south will be tundra and North will be more wet lands (Rivers, jungles and forest). Preferance will be expand North hopefully cutting off AI expansion. (Outside in expansion stratergy)
Excellent point - there won't be much south. Note that since the world is warm, then there might not be much tundra.


Build Order for Beijin
Warrior, Granery, then (warrior, Setter)
First settler is to link and road a luxury. Keeps our Capitol in Order while it mass produces settlers and Spearmen. (Granery is a most unless you find yourself on a very rich terrain)
Tend to agree. Sometimes if you have a bad start location, you might turn your second city into a settler factory. Whichever it is, a granary is a great option.


Research
I go Straight for Monarchy. (Not sure here) But I catching up by the middle ages

Keep in mind we want to take FULL advantage of the "Rider" unit. Generally "Art of War" Wonder is a MUST. Bring on the cheating AI.If we can get it! :D Barb-farming can also be effective, and as a militaristic civ, barracks are cheap (so SunTzu's is not as important).
Click to expand...



Detlef Richter said:
OK, first i would move our worker to N to take a first look to our main direction. (And there is something N,NW). Well, as said above, moving the worker is a good idea. We just need to agree on 'where'.

The settler should stay where he his and build our capitol.
Depending on what the worker finds?

One or two landmass and both not so big, means early contacts and perhaps an early war. So i think we should start with the militaristic techs like wheel, horse riding, bronze- and iron working. The others should be traded or searched by our self as well.

Three warriors for the start, two for exploring and one for our first settler who follows in the grid. Then a granary to set up an warrior/settler factory.
Sounds OK. :) I tend to decide depending on what we find, but at least one warrior first, probably two.
What think the others??
Click to expand...
 
mabellino said:
Of course 1 tile SW would also include the fish and both game without waiting for culture... :blush: Can't believe I didn't spot that! But... that would mean losing a bonus grassland. Mmmm tough decision.

Moving one tile SW means we will be on the bonus grassland. The city centre tile has the same production regardless of what it is built on, so you are completely right that we would be losing a bonus grassland! Also, we would still need the culture expansion to bring the second game in, as well as the fish.

How about moving the worker W and see what that reveals? I also spotted that we are in a southern location so expansion North is vital. What if our second town could also take advantage of the game (so long as our wet world gives us a river!) then we'd have 2 settler factories. I think that my initial move to SE would give the capital the fish and the two game could be shared between it and another town to give 2 settler factories.
Good ideas! :thumbsup:
Click to expand...


AlanH said:
[unlurk]I wouldn't get hung up on the fish. Assuming that's salt water (which no-one has mentioned yet BTW) that tile is poorer than the two grass you can see now and the others that look to be hiding to the west. You can't mine a fish. All you'll get from it is a little extra gold, which is the least important commodity in the early game. Your early citizens should be given access to the most powerful tiles you can see, and that isn't one of them. My 2 cents.[relurk] Good points - thanks! :)

Mauer said:
Well, I cannot deny that my first city is usually just a yeah whatever reaction. Not because I don't care, but because I don't understand. All of the micromanaging talk in the spoilers just boggles my feeble mind. It looks as though the ainwood and ALanH are looking for dumb questions. Well, enter Mauer.
Well, by good discussion, hopefully we can get a shared understanding. Micromanaging can be the key difference, and its just a matter of knowing what you are doing, or having a goal. I tend to do it in the early game, then back-off in the late game.

As for the 'dumb questions' - there are no dumb questions. :)

I have always tried to build my first city away from the coast (unless it is fresh water), the water doesn't allow for extra food untill harbor. And I try to set up a settler factory. I figure that the capital should be building settlers and the additional cities could be used for wonders should the opportunity arise. Is this right?
That's what we're getting at! - see, its not so dumb afterall! Have a city or two identified for settlers, and the others for whatever is required at the time. :)


Also I am confused about the food/shields on the city square. I think it is better not to settle on bonus like BG or game etc. That way it can be improved by workers. Right? Correct. :) you don't get the effects of terrain bonuses in the city center, so its best to build somewhere else.

Anyways, I would move the worker SW to build road/mine on the BG. depending on how the land looked that way I would either move the settler West, or settle as is. I would build warrior, warrior, granary. One for MP, one for explore. Sounds like we're starting to form a consensus! :D

By the way all of my comments are actually questions.No they're not, there are some good points there.
Click to expand...


spleen1015 said:
Just wanted to let everyone know that I am back sooner than expected. I'm going to catch up and I'll be ready to go.
Click to expand...
Good to hear. :)
Click to expand...
 
Well, we've got some good ideas, and I think we're starting to get a consensus on a few issues. :)

Unfortunately, its getting a bit late here! Have a read of my comments, and make any counter-comments as you see fit (remember: I don't pretend to know everything, so feel free to question what I've said as well, or ask for clarification!)

I'll post the thought processes that I follow in deciding on a founding cite tomorrow morning (hopefully). :)
 
ainwood said:
Some good discussion here!

I'll pick up on a few points, but firstl;y I apologize if this is going a bit slowly for people. I've been offline for the last few days. Also, the initial discussions are the important ones! Once we decide where to found our first city (and most importantly, 'why' ;)) then we'll move faster.


(summarised) thoughts:
Click to expand...

I especially like your description of terrain as "plainsish" and "grassish"!

I think we've reached consensus on a few points such as build order but not on what I feel to be one of the most important issues... city location!
Most people want to explore with the worker then choose somewhere to settle. I think this is a great choice, perhaps someone could play the first worker move, take a screenshot and post it and we can decide from there. But please put the grid on for that! I ended up using an acetate sheet and a marker pen to analyse the start! :crazyeye:

I would still like to stay on the coast because I feel the Colossus in our capital (if we manage to build it!) will really help research. The only problem with this is no palace prebuild and the AI have a faster build rate so it might not be achievable. If the worker shows us anything convincing then I'm all for moving away from it!

I think we should all come to an agreement on where to move the worker for the first move and then look at the other issues.

@Ainwood, don't worry if this seems to be moving slowly, I learnt more from your analysis of our suggestions that from all the GOTM's I've played yet!
 
It's good to be back. I was looking forward to being a part of this game. I'm glad I haven't missed much of anything. Here are my thoughts on our starting position.

Leave the settler where he is and let's build our first city here. I believe this will get rid of the forest that is already there which means we don't have to work the square in the future if we choose another spot for the city. Another reason I want to leave it is because we don't gain enough by moving to make the move worth it in my mind. If we were moving to a river tile that had a wheat next door, then I would definitely move.

I would move the worker SW and have him start mining the BG square. If we're going to look at this being a settler factory, then I think we need that extra shield.

I saw mention of chopping the forest where the Games are. I haven't dont that sort of thing before. What does it do to the Game? I'm assuming it turns it into another resource.Which resource?

As far as tech goes, if I don't have Pottery to start, 99% of the time I go for it first. Again, if we're building a settler factory, we need the Granary.

Initial production should be a Warrior. As a matter of fact, our first 2 should be Warriors and will should send them out exploring. We need to find a good spot for city #2. If it is feasible, a Settler should be #3 on the prodution queue.

I don't use the governer for anything. I control everything myself. When this first city starts pumping out Settlers, we will more than likely need to move the Happiness slider back and forth to maximize it's use.

I think finding some luxury resources are pretty important at this level. If there's any close, we need to give heavy consideration to placing our city #2 close to it.

One of the things I do at this stage of the game is I set reserch at 100% and don't worry about generating gold. Generally, throughout my game, I don't like to produce a lot of gold. I try to keep that as close to 0 as I can get it.

Those are my thoughts. :D

EDIT - When I first starting playing this game a few weeks ago, I read the article about Wonder addiction. From then on, I don't worry about building wonders. I target them when I am taking over cities, but I won't build them. This is at Regent level where I haven't lost a game. 6 for 6. This same idea may not work at this level.
 
I normally DONT build wonders with a militeristic civilization. Why struggle to build a single Ancient Wonder at all ? Instead build up a large number of horses reader to upgrade into riders.

1: Keep pumping out settlers and settle them closer. Plan on more Max size 12 cities.
(Cram more cities on the land we have)
(Also we'll be needing quite a few workers)

2: Remember we want to take advantage of the Chinese "Rider"
3: Should easily be able to aquire a few Leaders during our rampage through the Middle Age.
4: Use Leaders to Rush Wonders that we need.
5: Get Techs from civil were about to wipe out.

Therefore:
Forget the coast. Forget about building wonders in your capitol.
Its all about maximising our city for the Ancient Age. It wont play that big a role once we start our conquest.
 
spleen1015 said:
I saw mention of chopping the forest where the Games are. I haven't dont that sort of thing before. What does it do to the Game? I'm assuming it turns it into another resource.Which resource?
Click to expand...
[unlurk] Game is always game. It adds 2 food to the production of the tile it sits on. Remember during despotism you have to subtract one from any tile's production of three or more of anything - food, shields, gold.

So initially those game forests will give you 2 food (1+2-1) + 2 shields.

If you chop the forest you will get 10 shields on completion and then you will have grass plus game. You *may* have a bonus, but don't count on it. Basic grass plus game gives you 3 food (2+2-1) + no shields, but you can now irrigate or mine the grass to get another food or a shield. So you can get to a magic net 5 food per turn in a city using both those game tiles. Can you work out how, and why might 5 food per turn be magic?
 
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