Gotm23-Arabs - Pregame Discussion

It is not possible for you to begin play at this time but you can strategize together about what you think you would do in the main strategic challenges of game.

This process should allow all the players to look over the setup instructions for the game and discuss what they think these instructions mean without the risk of any real spoiler information. Since none of the players will be able to start the game, essentially all you will have available to support your discussion will be past GOTM results and strategy articles.

The rules for participation in this discussion thread are simple:

1) read the game announcement and get yourself mentally prepared to play the game when the save game is released to you.

2) The basic game setup and map description have been announced on the scope of the game pages and you may freely discuss these features here. The specific differences between the three classes of play have not been posted but will be released at with the starting save files and will follow previous patterns of choice. The intent here is to focus on the general strategy overview issues that may be required to succeed in this game with this map and this civ, without diverging too much in the bonuses that will be placed in each of the three classes.

3) Once you download the starting save game file and open it to begin play you may no longer participate in this discussion thread.

I plan to leave this thread open to support pregame discussion for any players who have not yet opened the starting save game file but if we have any players who violate this rule the discussion will be closed.

Again there is a great deal going on inside and around this month's game, but at the core of the process the game is simple and fun. Read the instructions and you will have a good time.

Be warned also that the first spoiler discussion will not open until September 5th.

The first spoiler discussion will require you to have a full map visibility plus contact with all nine of your neighbors or their remains and technology to complete the Ancient Age.

Here is your link to the

Game Announcement Page for Gotm23-Arabs

Good luck against your enemies of the faithful in whatever form they may take.

Domination on a pangaea map with the Ansar Warrior and cheap temples for filling in borders between corrupt captured cities - where's the catch?

Could it be lack of food bonuses, little room for peaceful expansion, and those raging barbarians? Will I be building archers early, or maybe even spearmen for the first time in months?

My first thoughts on first moves: what's going on in the grass NNE, or anywhere S? The settler will move NE and settle there unless something better turns up. This means the scout moves first - SE, S - which will reveal whether there's any reason to move the settler anywhere other than NE. If there is, the safe move is to move the worker NE, to make sure we're not missing something valuable in that direction. If there isn't, the worker moves E, where he will either start irrigating, or reveal the least likely possibility: that the settler should settle to the E.

Hmm, raging barbarians. Guess that means that building a couple of scouts to start isn't as good an idea as it would normally be, and we'd better escort early settlers.

The mountain range looks like it's thin, with possible grass in the 2W position. If the tile N, NE is grass vs. plains (hard to tell if it is green on the border because it's grass, or via influence from the nearby hill and mountain) then NE might be a good settler move to improve the food situation a little.

If the plains to the S and SE continue for a ways or turn into desert, it could be a good move to look for grass on the other side of the mountains. Then again, on raging barbs and having no escort to start with, moving the settler very far is just asking to get wiped out...

I'm leaning towards moving the scout S, and then deciding between more S or going W to the mountaintop depending on what is revealed. Impossible to say beyond that.

Since it's Pangea and domination (from the Medal Play point of view), and the UU is mounted, aim for the wheel first, so if there is contention for horses the location will be evident. The usual strategy of skipping the wheel and trading for it might not be a good idea in this case because low food = slow start, so the 2nd city placement is critical, and don't want to go the opposite direction from our key resource.

I'm thinking

Settle on the spot, send worker north (to road + mine) so that you can build warriors quickly to escort the settlers that you will be making, scout SW -> W this way you should egt a good view of what is west of the mountains.

I think that the first thing I will make is 2 warriors, Granary then start building settlers mixed with warriors and the very odd worker. Unless something drastic happens I will probably use the first city as my settler producer and the second city as my unit (army) creator.

With the barbarians set on raging I think it will be a good idea to get as many warriors as possible at the start, If I am lucky I will get a leader within the Ancient era.

I am not going to get my scout to stay on the mountains as i think t will get killed pretty quickly, so it is going to scout on the plains as fast as possible (I don't know if it is true or not but it seems that you are less likely to get barbarians on plains or grassland. which is why I will be staying out of the mountains.

Will probably aim for horseback riding early and create as many horsemen as possible (will definately be making a lot of barraks)

thats my 2 cents.

My strategy, after miserably giving up GOTM 22, is to build my 2nd worker ASAP. This is a very low food start. Get the 2nd worker, and you are given a head start. I will go warrior, worker, warrior/scout as my first queue. Those plains are begging for irrigation.

EDIT: whats this? Monarch difficulty? I will be playing this one aggressive .

Originally posted by Txurce
Domination on a pangaea map with the Ansar Warrior and cheap temples for filling in borders between corrupt captured cities - where's the catch?

Click to expand...

How about the combination of :
Geology: 3 billion years old
Environment: Warm and Arid

Doesn't that mean plains and mountains? Depending on bonus resources this could be a very food scarce combination!

I'm thinking I'll want to settle within range of those goats/menudo, so either on the start position or NE. I'll move the worker NE or E to see if there are any other bonus resources to gain by moving the settler, if not then I will settle at the start position and get the worker to irrigate/road the next couple of turns.

This game should be interesting as my brother and I made an AWP (Always War Pact) for the next Monarch level game. Luckily the Medal play designated victory condition is compatible, we were discussing how it might be a bit difficult (though not impossible, see SOTD #142) to get a diplomatic win with Always War .

Monarch level, domination goal, Ansar warriors ; my plan is simple : crush everything that stands before me !! I hope I can succeed in a long war during the Middle Ages... I will probably expand peacefully during the Ancien Times, and then suddenly wake up when Chivalry comes up, where I hope I will have been able to build dozens of horsemen.

I thought the Ansar warrior didn't need Iron, but I guess I was wrong. Of course one resource is extremely important, and I will surely give up my kingdom for a horse !! I will profit from this cheap unit (Ansar, 60 shields) to produce/upgrade more than usual, and send them everywhere by entire hordes, so I guess I will suffer losses, but I will warmonger like I did with Civ1 & 2 : lots of offensive units, almost no defensive units (remember the good old 12/2/2 machine in Civ2 ? I would produce that only). After all, I will try to redo what Arabs did in the 7th century. Hope I won't meet any Charles Martel somewhere near Poitiers.

The only thing I still won't understand after this game is how Arabs managed to suddenly wake up, adopt Islam so QUICKLY (think of Christianity in Rome), and launch a Jihad through the entire world... Because in my game, I will clearly prepare myself during centuries and centuries before !

I didn't play GOTM 22. I'll play this if the download package isn't too big.

But if I play:

Lets see. Arabia. Very dry, mountains, hills, deserts and plains.

Start: a warrior first, then a little exploration and maybe a settler or another warrior. Then propably more defence. Can't say for sure. But, luckily, opposite from GOTM 21, we have a river beside our start position. So in that case, we'll at least have food, if not much, but at least enough to build a settler quickly.

Maybe I should try OCC?

I am not able to choose my victory condition now, I'll just try to play the game and survive, as usually I play Warlrd, so I'll be playin Conquest class.

Hoping for my first victory on Monarch,

Wizard

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the luxury to the ESE. It looks like wool to me, and it appears to be on plains which means +3 food once irrigated. The tiles 2NE and ENE both appear to be desert. So settler SE seems to be best move at this point. But, we have a scout so I can check out more area first. I see no point in looking past the mountains since it would take at least 2 moves (more likely 3 or more) to get to a good position. The worker can check out the NE area by moving E so the first move will be scout S, and probably S again. Barring anything new uncovered, the worker will move E next, to verify that the NE tiles are desert. If they are, and there's nothing there I need then the settler will go SE to found Mecca (unless cracker has changed our capital name again). On the second turn the worker can go SE and irrigate the Wool. The scout will explore our local area first, for future placement and then beyond based on our location on the minimap.

For build order I'm thinking granary right off the bat. We'll start with 3spt, bumping up to 5spt on 1st growth. Irrigation will bump us to 3f on the 4th turn of the city, so we should grow on turn 8 (4*2 + 4*3). We'll have 24 shields by then, and the next 7 turns will yield another 35 shields (59 total), BUT we grow on that 7th turn providing the extra shield needed for the granary to be built. So we should get the granary with the 3rd citizen, in 15 turns total. Of course that's 15 turns for barbs to come and ruin production which could be a problem but I think this is the way I'm going to go. I will probably build 1 warrior next (2 turns) and then a settler (5 turns). This fills the granary and puts us at 2 pop with a settler. By this time I should have the first city spot figured out.

I have to agree with earlier comments that Wheel is a good tech to find early, however, I'm betting with hut popping and trading we'll be able to get it fairly soon. I'm debating whether to even start research. If I do I think it will be in a straight line towards Monarchy. Would be nice to pop Mysticism like Qitai did last game and then go for Polytheism and trade for the rest.

Originally posted by Xevious
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the luxury to the ESE.

Click to expand...

I'm thinking it may be Ivory.

Raging barbarians makes me want some extra defense for my capitol, and I don't want to be on plains sitting next to a mountain.

The N hill is an option, but then I would be ringed by mountains. SE puts my capitol in the crotch of the river, giving defensive bonus against 5 of 8 possible attack directions. It also gives a better advantage for horsemen/ansar, which I will try to get asap. I think I will settle on the SE tile, unless scout finds something better.

Raging barbs are definitely the antidote to Monarch. I'd like to go for early barracks, but not immediately, like I did in 5-4. I'm thinking 2 warriors first. Scout will stick to 2-move paths to try and avoid barb capture. Try to use warriors to pop any nearby huts the scout finds, and climb a few mountains.

Originally posted by Naboo

Try to use warriors to pop any nearby huts the scout finds, and climb a few mountains.

Click to expand...

In the last several test games I've tried, scouts popping huts got tech or friendly warriors about 75% of the time, where warriors popping huts got a higher percentage of unfriendlies. I can't tell if it is strictly the unit type doing the popping, or if it is the expansionist trait. In any case, the techs have been very lucrative in the test games...

I have blown up the start position to solidify my belief that there is something to the ESE... it looks more like Ivory then wool, but...

Txurce is interested in the NNE... looks like desert squares, but it could be a flood plain but given our current river location I think that would be a stretch.

Narrow Mountain range which is great for scout bouncing or slowly trudging a warrior along for the view.

Without deciding the starting location I think I'll go scout-warrior-? as builds. If a scout dies hopefully it will have paid for itself first with goody huts.

Granary build will be a must, but is there a better site for a settler factory? I'll have to wait and see.

Depending on my scouts info re. other civs, I mightsend a few of the first settlers unguarded... I realise this may result in a barb sacking but often it is only gp that are lost.

For the maths guys... what is the menado (that's what this is isn't it?) to the north worth if it is mined right away as oppsed to some irrigation on the plains?

From the starting image it looks like two extra food, one gold and one shield making this undeveloped square 3F, 2S, 1G. question, is it adjacent to a river for another gold.

A road first would make it 3F, 2S, 2G(3GwRiver)... does a mine under Despotism give us a third shield (I'll have to check gotmXX)?

Cheap upgrades for the UU with a pangaea map but iron is needed so I'm hoping that the mountains/hills are alive with the sound of mining! Horses like plains so I like this starting location.

Looks like a blast.

I think that you are right that there is a luxury E-SE I will try and attach a blown-up section of the map

It looks like Ivory

(what do you guys think?????)





hmmmmmm

I had a bit of trouble getting the file to upload (they should prolly allow .bmp files)

Originally posted by Boyd
For the maths guys... what is the menado (that's what this is isn't it?) to the north worth if it is mined right away as oppsed to some irrigation on the plains?

Click to expand...

It's not menudo, it's goats, and they give you 2fpt, 2spt on that hill in despotism, with no improvements. I don't think that tile will get a river commercial bonus, but it's hard to be certain when a river appears to end near a tile.

[edit] If you road and mine it it'll go up to a 3.4.1 tile, which gets cut back to 2.3.1 in despotism.

Since it's the only visible 2fpt tile at the start, and it gives 2spt as well, it's going to take new information to persuade me to move the settler away from it. The visible plains/river tiles are 1.1.1, and will only get to 2.1.2 after they get irrigation and road. That's, what, seven turns?

The only move that doesn't take the goats outside the 9-tile radius is NE, and that's towards desert and, if my eyes don't deceive me, another plains tile NNE. So at the moment my settler stays put until I see more in turn zero.

This month, I'll make my first serious attempt to complete a GOTM. (I tried 21 and 22 but didn't complete any of them due to lack of time).
I'll send my worker E and my scout S to see if there's a good reason to move my settler SE. Otherwise I'll settle on the spot. (I'd like to have the goats in my starting range).
With raging barbs I'll go warrior - warrior - scout - settler.
I'll use my scouts to pop huts and hopefully they'll get some techs before they get killed.
I think this map might be slightly crowded, so I'll expect early contacts. I'll try to stay peaceful and polite until I discover chivalry...

The best we can get the goats to be is 3f/3s/1g by mining and putting in a road... this would be 19 turns total or 13 if we just go mining...

Unimproved would be 3f/2s/0g (assuming no river) as we get the full food bonus since this is a bonus resource, right, or does it stay at a despotism 2?

In this period we could irrigate two plains (move+irrigate=5) and road one of them...

I think we get a second population by turn ten which would give us an additional 2f/1s/2g for a fully developed plain on a river.

I figure that unless something brilliant turns up with the first scout move (S-W?) the worker will move E and the settler will stay put.

[edited because I messed up the quote function]

Originally posted by Boyd
Narrow Mountain range which is great for scout bouncing or slowly trudging a warrior along for the view.

Click to expand...

What are bouncing scouts? I was given scout to play with at the start of GOTM22 and he didn't exactly bounce. The mountainous/forested southern terrain meant he slowed to the pace of a warrior most of the time, and with zero attack/defence I decided he was pretty useless. I didn't build a single scout myself.

[Edi] Deleted obsolete, irrelevant comment

@AlanH... you must have posted as I was bothching my quoting of your comment... have a look at it now and you'll see that I think we are not quite on the same page...

I am drawing my analysis from crackers' comments and from the discussion around the new resources...

Bouncing scouts: scout ends two move on a hill or mountain... next turn scout moves off mountain in a diagonal direction from the mountain range and then moves back on.

This provides the scout with the ability to jump along two mountains each turn and get the two tile sight benefit of the high ground.

Hmm... Low food start. I'm going to look around with worker and scout pretty carefully before I settle anywhere.

Long term, I'm thinking that, inasmuch as Cracker knows history and geography, we're on an "Arabian Penninsula", surrounded by a "Red Sea" and a "Persian Gulf". We'll hunker down and build horsemen like crazy, until we can bust out of our desert, clear our penninsula, rush Ansar Warriors, and take over the world as we know it. The world is young, and Ansar Warriors have special movement abilities on roadless terrain, so I think that will be significant. I wonder whether there will be a Byzantine Empire for us to overrun? The Persians will definitely figure prominently - they may be right next to us, and be our chief rivals in the early game.

I'm going to build a granary straight away and go for horseback riding as soon as I can. I'll leave more detailed thinking to the good players...