• Civilization 7 has been announced. For more info please check the forum here .

1.5 Feedback

Also few icons for religion ad spice missing, i find some icons just shown wih number (white ring and black number like 102 or 21)

so far its great game just waiting till you twek all things , enhance religions and make ai being aggressive and tough.
(there were 2 religions and no wars until late game, i was isloated , developed rovers, and started massive conquest)
 
Another bug i found when playing as Corringo, that When i teched Mauler , i got regular Master Guardsmen, and not my UU Militia.

Thanks for finding this bug! The civilopedia shows that Master Guardsman and Imperial Militia are related, and it shows Imperial Militia as the UU of Corrino. However, there is a small error in the XML file for Corrino. In that file, it says that Imperial Militia is an upgrade of *Crysknife Fighter*, which is wrong. I have fixed it in the files for release 1.5.5.

Also i found its runni9ng Revolution Mod (civil wars?) by default - But i dont know how to disable it.

Ahriman has given the answer of how to disable it. I guess you were playing a different mod, which had a number of game options, and your ini file had those options turned on. We have had a lot of trouble from some of the base modcomps that were all stirred together to make Dune Wars 1.0, and we keep trying to track these problems down and eliminate them. I also thought there was no way to have civil wars turned on, even if you wanted, but I guess I was wrong.
 
I think that AI production handling should limit the number of suspension transport they build. I was recently attacked by 2 suspension platforms and 10-15 transports, and while they are str 2 AI suicided them against my 3 hardened swordsmen...
 
One of the bugs I had somewhere was that suspensor platforms should be made unable to attack.

This needs to be a priority, if it isn't already in 1.5.5.
 
You have suggested a point solution, and I would prefer to find the underlying reason and fix that. First, why is the AI building so many transports? Second, why is it suiciding them? I am afraid that simply making them unable to attack will cause some other weird behavior. I haven't taken the time to do that experiment. The XML change is very easy; for all the suspensor craft, find the line:
Code:
			<bOnlyDefensive>0</bOnlyDefensive>
And change it to 1. If you look at the scout unit, you will see this flag already set.
 
If this is a major problem then we should ask Cephalo to investigate the issue.
 
First, why is the AI building so many transports? Second, why is it suiciding them? I am afraid that simply making them unable to attack will cause some other weird behavior.

I think its making a lot of transports because it needs them. Maybe suspensor transports should go up to transport capacity 3? Otherwise you really need too many transports to move
As for why its suiciding them; I think that is part of their assault AI. They run up, drop their troops, and then the AI throws the whole stack at the city.

I would have thought that if they couldn't attack, that the AI would just dump the stuff out from them and then move them back to base. Obviously thats the desired behavior.

I agree that we should ask Cephalo to investigate, since its likely to be partly due to his AI changes.
 
Maybe suspensor transports should go up to transport capacity 3

I noticed in your last unit design they had capacity 3 so it is presumably an oversight that they don't. I have been using Scout Thopters instead of them as they seemed a redundant unit - same capacity, same speed. So, I think increasing them to 3 capacity is a good idea. They should really be the intermediate transport between scout thopter and light carryall.
 
As for why its suiciding them; I think that is part of their assault AI. They run up, drop their troops, and then the AI throws the whole stack at the city.

I guess that makes sense. This does not arise with vanilla galleys, etc because they cannot attack cities anyway. Making them defensive only is an easy experiment to try.

BTW, we are getting a lot of good feedback in all these different threads, and it is quite challenging to keep track of it all. With the "AHRxx" numbering, at least I can do a forum search each week and update the sheet with all these good ideas. Otherwise many of them are getting lost.
 
AHR23
Suspensor transport needs to be unable to attack; after dropping its cargo (nice work on the AI cephalo!) the AI suicides its stack of transports against my city defenders.

From the modpack thread.

Also note that I think I doubled AHR35. All buildings except desalination need to be unbuildable on salt pans.
 
The world tiles are not really center. All the units and building dont seem to be in the center of a grid square. Here's a Screenie
 

Attachments

  • Dune.7z
    5 MB · Views: 84
Our threads have wandered a bit, I think the last discussion on settler build speed was in the incremental patch thread.

Ahriman has commented that early game expansion is too fast, and he has requested multiple times to make settlers more expensive. I want to make two points: DW settlers cost the same as vanilla, and what we should do is make early game water a little more rare.

Settler cost: in both vanilla and DW, a settler costs 100h, and it is built by adding your food(water) surplus to your hammer yield. Start a new DW game, found a city, and go to the city screen to build a settler. Hover over the settler button and it tells you the cost, 100h. Look at your water and hammer surplus and add them. In my game I had 3w city +1w from a hill, and 1h city + 2h from a hill, with one pop that gives a 2w surplus and 3h for 5, and a settler takes 20 turns. I did the same experiment in vanilla, settler costs 100h, I had 2 food surplus and 2 hammers, and the settler takes 25 turns. Yes, it is longer, but because of the higher water surplus in DW.

There are three early game improvements which yield water: dew collector, well, and windtrap. Each of them increases the terrain yield by 2. Once you have a couple of these improvements, you have a high water surplus. So either your population grows fast or you can build settlers fast.

Suppose we make all three of these yield one water initially instead of two, and add back the second water with a tech in the third or fourth tier. This guarantees that mid game city water yield will be the same, but decreases early water yield. For example, Desert Plantation could increase dew collector yield, and Arrakis Habitation could increase well yield. Sand Farms already increases windtrap yield; I am not sure why that one exactly. We could either permanently decrease windtrap yield, or find some other two techs to increase its yield.

What do you think?
 
and what we should do is make early game water a little more rare.

A fair point. Its worth trying.

I also feel that deep wells come to early.

I suggest also that we decrease the base yield of plantations (some of these give yields of +6!!), and add it back at sand farms.

How about:
i) drop well yield by 1 water, add it back at desert engineering
ii) drop windtrap yield by 1 water, add it back at arrakis habitation
iii) drop dew collector yield by 1 water, add it back at desert plantation
iv) move deep wells from climate controls to water discipline.
v) cut the yield of all plantations by 1h2c, and add it back at sand farms.
vi) move the +1 water for windtraps from sandfarms to desert industry.

This will have a *large* impact on the early game.

And while we're moving things around:
a) move open borders from desert engineering to dune topography
b) move centers world map from desert engineering to dune topography
c) move gold trading from climate controls to protected trade
d) move vassal states from social mobility to imperialism
e) remove the observatory building (this will help fix the early game tech explosion; why do we have 2 +25% beaker buildings right next to each other? and why do we need an observatory? Lets leave it library and university).
f) move tech trading from suspensor devices to education.
g) increase the beaker cost of education by ~20%.
h) increase the beaker cost of dune topography by ~20%.
i) increase the beaker cost of arrakis habitation by ~20%.

And as discussed before:
j) move dew collectors to desert survival
k) make mining an AND requirement for water transportation
l) make fanaticism an AND requirement for harsh conditioning, OR increase HC beaker cost by 40%.
m) move feudal estate to caste systems. Move fiefdom to Imperialism. move landsraad outpost to great houses. move landsraad directorate to CHOAM. move temple of muad'dib to jihad. move Golden Path to Golden Path tech.

n) consider merging the sayyadinas tech into the Faith tech. We don't really gain much from having both.
 
From my experiences i can say that none of those changes will impact the game negatively, i though alot of sam same things while playing. Observatory - How observatory helps to resereach in Dune world? while you have spice and all those Guilds and Folding space? I dunno....
So, pretty much agreed on all things i had experience with.
Yep, also i think all those changes will improve AI performance, because of bit twisted priorities, anyways Human make better priorities than AI, and by decreasing -1 water from early tech improvement it will lessen gap between human and stupid ai which didnt prioritized necessary improvement tech.
Btw its very important to give new tech priorities to AI.
 
Several problems have been reported with peaks. Here is a status update.

1. Resource, eg nitrates, on peak fail to connect with cities (AHR39). Actually this is probably because resources have an "enables" tech (TechCityTrade in the xml) which prevents a resource from connecting early. This is set to some random values in the current xml. You can see which tech this is in the pedia entry for the resource. In particular, nitrates is enabled by Desert Engineering. Give yourself this tech, and you will see the resource connecting. I have fixed this in 1.6 by removing all the "enables" techs. I am not sure what purpose it serves anyway.

2. Quads can enter mesa, even though the xml and unit help says they cannot. This is true; it doesn't matter whether they are in cultural borders or which other units are selected. Mesa is an altitude, not a terrain, so we cannot use the xml TerrainImpassable flag to affect this. I will try an sdk change with a new xml flag.

3. Turbines and cottages can be built on mesa, even though the xml says they cannot. This is also because mesa is an altitude. It has some terrain type such as grass associated with it, even if you cannot see it, and the turbine/cottage is allowed on that terrain type. All of the "makes valid" conditions are logically OR'd together so if the terrain type allows it, that is enough.

For 2,3 I have posted onto the mountains modcomp thread, and added my proposed solution. Each one requires a new xml flag.

Here is my question/concern. Making this suddenly work seems like an improvement, but may cause major gameplay problems. For example, you may be unable to reach a target city with suspensor units without going a long way around some mesas. Koma has promised a major homeworld screen update today or tomorrow; as soon as that comes, I was planning to upload 1.6.

If I finish the new flags, should I put them into the major 1.6 release or hold it for a separate 1.6.1?
 
1. Resource, eg nitrates, on peak fail to connect with cities (AHR39). Actually this is probably because resources have an "enables" tech (TechCityTrade in the xml) which prevents a resource from connecting early. This is set to some random values in the current xml. You can see which tech this is in the pedia entry for the resource. In particular, nitrates is enabled by Desert Engineering. Give yourself this tech, and you will see the resource connecting. I have fixed this in 1.6 by removing all the "enables" techs. I am not sure what purpose it serves anyway.

The reason for that functionality is so that if you lack the tech to harvest something, like bananas, and you happen to capture a city from a civ that can build plantations, then you don't get the advantage of the banana. Same if your culture grows over a plantation that you aren't supposed to be able to build.
 
1. Resource, eg nitrates, on peak fail to connect with cities (AHR39). Actually this is probably because resources have an "enables" tech (TechCityTrade in the xml) which prevents a resource from connecting early.

Hmm. I feel a bit stupid if thats all it was. But maybe not so much since the allowable techs aren't particularly obvious.
I do understand the purpose for them in general, but I don't think we should use them here; I think instead that if we're going to have resources activated by partcular techs, we should just hide the resource until that tech is available (like how crystal is hidden) and then activate them then.
I'll report if I see this not happening again despite the tech.

I thought I remembered at least on some occasions quads being unable to enter mesas or peaks, but maybe I am wrong.

Making this suddenly work seems like an improvement, but may cause major gameplay problems. For example, you may be unable to reach a target city with suspensor units without going a long way around some mesas.

I agree that movement blocking can cause some unforseen problems. I'm not so worried about suspensors; I think with suspensors you *should* have to go around (later game you should have carryalls anyway) and you won't have to go that far around. A bit more worrisome with roller/scorpion vehicles (xian walkers shoudl be able to enter peaks). Still by itself not such a problem, since mesas are broken pretty regularly (even in continous lines of mesa, you can cross them if the measas are on a diagonal).
The biggest issue is likely to be that an AI stack containing a mixture of units could get messed up by trying to keep the stack together, so the AI ended up sending its infantry units around the long way, or of not putting its infantry units on mesa tiles with their high defensive bonus (which is what you should optimally do; sit next to a city on a defensive mesa tile, bombing its walls until they are down, then assault).

If I finish the new flags, should I put them into the major 1.6 release or hold it for a separate 1.6.1?

If you can get the terrain working in time, I'd put that into 1.6. Unit access seems to be lower priority to me; if you get it to work, maybe disable suspensor access for now but not vehicles.
 
So, I have implemented the xml flag which prevents an improvement from being built on peak/mesa. I set this flag for cottages and for turbines. The original motivation for preventing cottages and turbines on mesa was to let the AI choose mines over turbines. But, now that I have done this, it bothers me that turbines are allowed in sink (down out of the wind) but not allowed on mesa (in the wind). Does that bother anybody else?
 
It certainly bothers me, removing the turbines from mesa is only a temporary fix. Honestly, we need to rethink turbines vs solar farms vs mines.

An ideal design would have all three improvements useful, and built by the AI.

At the moment
a) Tubines 1h1c outclasses mines 1h except on bonus resources
b) solar farms are almost never built by the AI because it is afraid of the -1 water penalty even though water income on a tile can't go below 1
c) turbines and mines must be upgraded with tech, whereas solar farms increase yeilds automatically from new techs, making the solar farm a better deal in terms of worker input time.
d) level 2 mines come in the midgame, but level 2 turbines and the first solar farm boost come quite late.

There's no obvious design that fixes all these and keeps them all interesting.

As an alternative, how about:
i) Surface/deep/core mines, buildable only on mesa and bonus resources, give +2/+3/+4 hammers. Get 1 extra hammer with nitrates and crystals, and 2 extra commerce with diamonds.
Build time 4 turns/8 turns/8turns.
ii) Turbines. Buildable on mesa or flatland, but not in sinks. Turbine1/turbine2/turbine3 give 1h1c/2h1c/3h2c Build time 4 turns/8turns/8turns. Move turbine 2 to a slightly earlier tech (I don't have the tree in front of me).
iii) Solar farms. Buildable on flatland and in sinks, not on mesa. Gives +2 hammers.
Build time 7 turns. Gets +1 commerce with tech1, gets +1 hammers with tech2. Cannot be built on anchor grass or grasslands (clouds make them not work well).

Another thing to consider is making a civic or 2 that boosts solar farms and turbines. We already have boosters for mines, cottages, and specialists. This is the missing one I guess.
 
we need to rethink turbines vs solar farms vs mines

This might be a less is more situation. It seems like the role of these improvements always ends up overlapping. If something doesn't have a clear distinct purpose in the mod, it is often better to drop it. Do we really need so many varieties of improvement? What does each one add?
 
Top Bottom