1.6 feedback

[davidlallen]

I have not been able to reproduce the Quad incident. But they can still travel on Mesa, and so can Suspensor crafts.

Thank you for pointing this out several times. This is on the list of items to be fixed.

I should point out that all of the current issues to be fixed, are kept in a spreadsheet. You can find the latest spreadsheet at this post. Please note the date on that post; clearly anything which has been reported after that date will not be in the sheet yet. I put updated spreadsheets onto that thread, and there is more detailed discussion about what is coming up in future patches.

I can think of one very reasonable mistake the AI would make, like I am quite certain it could do in FfH if you haste one of their units for one turn; they give "go to" orders with the info that the unit moves faster than it actually will once the promo fades.

That seems possible. However, if the unit is "going to" any location inside cultural borders, the computation will be correct. This miscalculation only occurs if it is going outside cultural borders. When you see the units leaving cities to attack, are the target stacks inside cultural borders or outside? The behavior we want is something like spearmen city defenders in vanilla. They will go on roads one plot away to attack, so they can move back into the city before the end of the turn. This is what "should" happen with quads; they should be city defenders who can go 1-2 plots outside the city to attack, and then get back inside the city before the end of the turn.

 

[davidlallen]

We could consider changing the culture boundaries though (as in, how many culture points require to expand to cultural radius X). ... David, which file are these stored in? I can take a look at some stage and try tweaking.

gameinfo/civ4culturelevelinfo.xml:

<CultureLevelInfo>
	<Type>CULTURELEVEL_FLEDGLING</Type>
	<Description>TXT_KEY_CULTURELEVEL_FLEDGLING</Description>
	<iCityDefenseModifier>20</iCityDefenseModifier>
	<SpeedThresholds>
		<SpeedThreshold>
			<GameSpeedType>GAMESPEED_MARATHON</GameSpeedType>
			<iThreshold>30</iThreshold>
		</SpeedThreshold>

For each named cultural level such as Fledgling, each game speed has a different threshold value.

 

[davidlallen]

A lot of the stuff isn't missing; it's just in game it's a bit harder to go through. My biggest beef with Civ is I wish you could read the Civlopedia without opening the game. As I said, if the game is opened...I want to play it! I don't know, maybe a general warning. "DON'T THINK YOU CAN LEARN WHILE PLAYING! WE MEAN IT READ THE RULES!"

(half joke) Perhaps we should have a popup which comes up when you start the game; it asks you a question about the rules, and unless you get the right answer, all it will let you access is the civilopedia.

 

[keldath]

hey david, i just read there's gonna be a new mad max movie - guess how its gonna be named:

Fury Road!

someones a psychic?

 

[Ahriman]

Just a quick reply as I'm on break at school. What surprised me with this was it was Leto II of the Atreides! We had been mostly friendly throughout the game and after some tech trading seemed to be best buds, but then 3-6 turns later he attacks me out of the blue. About the only thing I can think of is Corrino bribed him into attacking me since I was already at war with them.

Hmm.
Well, take a look at the leader values here. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=339007
Leto II is a pretty middle of the road AI. Fairly religious (and wants you to be same religion a lot), and likes Wonders, but not particualrly aggressive.

Only someone he is PLEASED with can get him to declare war on someone else, and he will refuse to be bribed into war with anyone he is FRIENDLY with. So if you had friendly relations with him, he couldn't be bribed to attack you; if you had less than friendly relations, then he could be bribed to attack you only by someone else who was friendly.
However, like any AI, he could still just dogpile war you, or attack if you were nearby and seemed weak.

 

[davidlallen]

hey david, i just read there's gonna be a new mad max movie - guess how its gonna be named:

Fury Road!

someones a psychic?

There have been rumors about a new Mad Max movie for many, many years. When I started the Fury Road mod, I used google, and found that was the name they would be using. So I took their idea. Are you sure the news you saw was "new" news?

 

[keldath]

yeah, pretty solid news,

they talked about Sam Worthington in it, will be done by the same director who did the last three.

sweet huh..

 

[davidlallen]

I realize the game mechanics puts limitations on the modder in that since the spice crawler is represented as an improvement, it has to be inside the cultural boundary to be worked, it does cause irritation that there is all this 'free' spice just outside the limits of that boundary that you just can't work.

This is why I've wondered if there couldn't be a way to switch it to where the spice crawler is a specialty worker that is relatively expensive that generates a 1-tile of culture so it can work. .

We have discussed this a few times in the early days of the mod. Several people including koma13 have complained that we are rejecting this type of idea without giving it enough consideration.

The first part is to make the improvement buildable outside cultural borders, spread culture, etc. The second part is getting the AI to really understand this, send workers there, protect them, and so forth. If we do the first part without the second, the human player will walk all over the AI, and it will be no challenge at all. The second part is really hard to do.

If somebody wants to go off and write the AI code for the second part, great. I will be happy to integrate it. But I feel the game will be completely unchallenging if the human player can get income this way and the AI can't. So I don't feel we should change the mechanic until both parts are available.

 

[Ahriman]

Add the third requirement: contesting resources away from the deep desert, with only suspensors, thopters and Fremen, is balanced and actually fun.

 

[God-Emperor]

Without the boost, the AI wont' build cottages. Cottage = 1c, turbine = 1h1c. AI builds turbines.

This may be fixed, or at least improved, in the new 1.6.2 version with the updated BBAI (to v0.81). The problem with workers cycling over tiles swapping them from cottages to something else and back was caused by the AI not valuing the potential growth of cottages correctly. In v0.80 of BBAI this was fixed. I think the versions of DW before 1.6.2 used a version of BBAI from before v0.80, so this fix would be new to DW.

This may or may not improve the AI's valuing of a cottage's future growth for DW.

It is one more reason to test 1.6.2.

 

[Slvynn]

Yep as i told, i think there is improvement of ai in 1.6.2, and i'd advise not to downgrade, but use it, howver it need adaptation for DW. Uts better to work, test and adapt it than just deny. I think it doing its job, and i seen slight improvement of AI's growth between 1.6.1 and 1.6.2
I cant beat yet 9 player deity game on small map. I can beat tiny deity , or immortal small with struggle (if i get unlucky i may lose). Using 1.6.1 once i'v risen to power noone were able to stop me (played as BTl). May be its just powerfull plague.

 

[arkham4269]

Only someone he is PLEASED with can get him to declare war on someone else, and he will refuse to be bribed into war with anyone he is FRIENDLY with. So if you had friendly relations with him, he couldn't be bribed to attack you; if you had less than friendly relations, then he could be bribed to attack you only by someone else who was friendly.

However, like any AI, he could still just dogpile war you, or attack if you were nearby and seemed weak.

Well that's sort of what I was thinking. it surprised me since Corrino was the only one I was at war with and even then Corrino declared war on me and except for some thopters picking off easy units, we pretty much ignored that we were at war since their faction was far away. So it wasn't like I was weak (I wasn't since I had built up a lot of units expecting a war with the nearby Harkonens) or having lots of factions at war with me.

It's why I thought maybe there could be an option for a alert (not a pop-up but the alerts like at the top of the screen) to announce a shift in diplomacy. I mean it's easy to miss even with the iconic faces. Plus sometimes I shut down that info because with the long names of Dune Wars, it sort of fills up the screen and I accidentally click on a faction instead of a unit.

I mean I'd think a shift from Pleased to Cautious in the span of 6 turns is enough of a shift to cause your diplomatic types to freak out and alert you, right?

 

[arkham4269]

The first part is to make the improvement buildable outside cultural borders, spread culture, etc. The second part is getting the AI to really understand this, send workers there, protect them, and so forth. If we do the first part without the second, the human player will walk all over the AI, and it will be no challenge at all. The second part is really hard to do.

(sigh) I think this is similar to something I thought would make Fury Road more fun and you agreed with me...and then pointed out it would hose the AI. I think that is something that is easy for us non-modders to forget; yeah you can code it but to get the AI to do it is another can of worms.

As I mentioned earlier, kudos to whoever wrote that naval AI upgrade; I've always been disappointed at how Civ III was better at navies than Civ IV so it's nice to see improvement. Even before the map issue, I'd played on a Archipelago to slow down the aggression from rival factions. Even though it was a shock, it was great to see the AI attack me anyway via suspensor craft and with enough troops to be a threat.

Oh well, hopefully a fix could be made since I think have a crawler unit needing a carry-all for safety would be a better way to go.

 

[davidlallen]

DV23 - Just started a game as Corrino and I start with 2 scout thopters, a soldier and a settler. This seems a bit unfair compared with other civs that start with 2 soldiers and a settler. Can we just standardized it for everyone apart from the Fremen, so that everyone gets a settler, a soldier and a scout thopter.

Are you sure? What difficulty level? I cannot reproduce this. On Noble, I get one thopter, one soldier and one settler. Is it possible that your initial city was near a tribal village, and they gave you a scout?

 

[Deliverator]

Nope, not sure. Can't recreate. I still think 1 scout thopter, 1 soldier and 1 settler is a nice combination for everyone with the Fremen getting the Fremen scout instead.

 

[Ahriman]

It's why I thought maybe there could be an option for a alert (not a pop-up but the alerts like at the top of the screen) to announce a shift in diplomacy. I mean it's easy to miss even with the iconic faces. Plus sometimes I shut down that info because with the long names of Dune Wars, it sort of fills up the screen and I accidentally click on a faction instead of a unit.

I mean I'd think a shift from Pleased to Cautious in the span of 6 turns is enough of a shift to cause your diplomatic types to freak out and alert you, right?

I think we're talking past each other a little here.
If Leto II attacked you when you had Pleased relations or higher, it doesn't mean that your relations dropped down to cautious (relations changes are basically always due to something that you as the player did), it means that he wasn't bribed into attacking you; he attacked you on his own, probably because he saw that you were a threat and saw that you were already at war with someone else. Most AIs are much more likely to attack someone who is already at war.

Good relations makes it less likely that this will happen, but not impossible.

Did you share a state religion with LetoII? This would also make it much less likely for him to DOW you.

 

[arkham4269]

Did you share a state religion with LetoII? This would also make it much less likely for him to DOW you.

I think I did, but not sure.

Well I still believe that there needs to be some penalty for going to war with someone who is pleased with you, especially if you share the same religion. Folks who know me know I do wish there was a way to have more of the diplomatic options of the game Europa Universalis. While we can't do Casa Belli or at the hit you take on stability, I'd think there might be a way to at least take a diplomatic penalty for attacking someone who is pleased with you and perhaps some for a time in your own cities for attacking 'another of the faith' - doesn't mean you can't do it, just that you have to weigh the risk.

Also, to ask again, I do wish for (if it isn't there already) the flip side to that. I don't like that I get a diplomatic hit with Civ X when they ask me to attack Civ Y. I mean now I have a with X in the vein of "You refused to help us!" Okay well why don't I get a with Y in the vein of "You remain true to me!" and maybe over time you might get a general bonus with other Civs "You are a loyal friend to your allies".

On a semi-humorous vein, I do wish there was a diplomatic option to insult folks. To often I get asked by Civs for some fabulously valuable tech and I want to say something more than just no. Something like, "Do you own research you lazy bunch of hacks! You'll get those secrets when you pry them out of my cold, dead hands!"

That being said, I was happy the day the "Cease Bothering Me!" option was added!

 

[Ahriman]

Well I still believe that there needs to be some penalty for going to war with someone who is pleased with you, especially if you share the same religion

There is. When Leto II declared war on you, get got a permanent diplomacy penalties with the other factions who liked you.
Just like how you get a diplomacy penalty with the friends of people who you declare war on.

I don't like that I get a diplomatic hit with Civ X when they ask me to attack Civ Y

Then your quibble is with vanilla civ4. I don't think we should be getting into detailed changes of the diplomacy system in this mod.
The mechanic is there to try to force players to pick sides, and to encourage factionalism and conflict. It SHOULD be hard to remain friends with everyone.
Note that if you accept a request to declare war, you get a diplomatic bonus with the person who asked you.

That being said, I was happy the day the "Cease Bothering Me!" option was added!

Does this actually do anything? Does it stop them from approaching you with requests, until you next initiate relations with them?

 

[Diamondeye]

All cities with the religion that your enemy runs as state religion suffer a penalty. But then again, this is for both parts of the war, I think.

The "loyalty" thing you think of is just a twist of the "there has been peace in our time", right?

Ai attack mechanics are simple once you know them. Most AIs can attack at Pleased, but unless bribed you'd see it coming by the WHEOOH. Friendly AIs can often be trusted.

Be wary that the AI can decide to attack you when cautious, then wait and grow to pleased or friendly, and then still DoW you.

 

[arkham4269]

Does this actually do anything? Does it stop them from
approaching you with requests, until you next initiate relations with them?

Well I've found that it is a wonderful tool to goad a Civ into attacking you when you don't want to attack them. I've noticed that often times attacking Civs first often voids a defensive pact you have with another Civ. This way, by insulting them into war, you get the war you wanted and you get to keep your defensive pact.

Plus even though you risk war, it is nice that it causes that Civ to stop asking you for things you aren't going to give them.

In regard to Civ IV diplomacy, yes I do believe Firaxis needs to step up and do better. I've always wondered why Civ didn't incorporate a lot of the diplomacy from Alpha Centauri which did diplomacy a lot better.