FatCatAttack
Chieftain
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2010
- Messages
- 9
You made an analogy that worked to the opposite of what you wanted to prove, and now try to save it by redefining the context. I don't think this is a worthwhile venue of discussion, since obviously every failed analogy in every discussion can be "saved" this way. If you feel that pulling Persian catapults out of your hat adds something worthwhile to your original argument, fine, I won't debate it.
Again you are cherry picking now with selective quoting. We have to talk about catapults because we are talking about the general progression of the game. You are doing some projection here as you redefined the context from the beginning by crafting essentially a scenario type of situation trying to recreate the exact battle. But the thing is you are going backwards. My analogy is in terms of many kinds of Thermopylaes. Meaning we are playing the game normally from the beginning and perhaps we end up with a small empire and have to fight a larger empire. We are creating a Thermopylae situation dynamically to leverage our smaller force against a larger one. Perhaps I should have been more general to avoid nitpicking. Live and learn.
Who told you that Civ4 tried to "mitigate" SoDs? If the Civ4 design team had wanted to do that, then there'd be lots of possibilities (stronger stack counters like collateral damage, give units in a stack negative modifiers, implement higher logistics costs for large stacks, implement a chance that a non-optimal defender is chosen which increases with stack size, etc.). Mitigating stacks is easy. The problem is whether the AI can grasp the rules.
Civ4 chose the route to make large stacks the best option most of the time, and Soren wrote an AI that coped with them pretty well (assemble stacks, move and attack with them in a coordinated fashion, transport stacks across oceans, etc.). It's a design decision that paid off with an AI that actually poses a challenge for new players. Calling it a "failed experiment" by supposing that the devs wanted to mitigate a feature that you don't like is a bit of a stretch, imho.
Conversely, the design decisions for Civ5 were apparently to have a more tactical combat system and write the AI as an afterthought. This only way the current state of the implementation couldn't be seen as "failed" is when we assume that the devs didn't even care about making the AI competitive. But that's in contradiction to everything they said before.
It's interesting that Civ4's lead designer was also its AI programmer, which means that Soren could design the game's rules so that the AI could have a decent grasp on them. In Civ5, the AI designer is just one of many guys working under the lead designer, and apparently either he didn't object enough to a rules system that would be extremely difficult to teach to an AI, or wasn't listen to, or overestimated his abilities and agreed to it.
There's a dev who posts on the Somethingawful forums who wrote in a Megathread on Civ IV that they basically threw their hands up and accepted SoD's as an inevitability by BTS. That's why the protective trait came into being mostly to help the turtling computer and that was a failure as it screwed over quite a few leaders. Poor Toku.... The XP system is something that lends individuality to units. The SoD takes away that individuality . There's no synergy there. While some stacking was obviously meant to happen like a Spearmen protecting a unit from cavalry the mass consolidation of armed forces into a single tile was something they hadn't considered. Collateral was an attempt to fight the stacks but it just made it worse as your stack had to get even fatter to protect itself. Like some horrifying demonic cyst everytime they poked at the stack problem is just expanded the stacks even more.
Civ IV AI couldn't handle stacks. In fact the playability of the game ironically relies on the fact that the AI couldn't handle stacks. As I said unless you massively overpowered them equivalent forces would forever be deadlocked in weird little dance waiting for someone to take the plunge and move first. The AI isn't where the challenge is. The challenge is within the player themselves. Did you do this correctly? Did you optimize here? Did you prioritize the right tech etc.? It's a game that encourages rules mastery and metagaming. Civ V is a response to that. It tries to make everything develop naturally and dynamically and that's reflected everywhere in its design from the way it limits expansion to how units fight by plugging away at each other for multiple rounds to the social policy system. If they didn't consider Civ IV a failed experiment why change so much in response in Civ V?
what people do to defend their opinion.
Oke, i go along your way. I "imagine" that that cannon, does not represent 100% cannon regiment, but also some additional forces. Cool, nothing wrong with that.
But wait; lets take a Knight, for example. Following your path, i should imagine that that Knight is not made of 100% Knights, but also some additional forces. How come then, that those additional forces, can keep up with the Knight, who, apperently, travel much faster.
You see, i try hard. But i smell some inconsistanties in your reasoning. Now, whatever you answer will be; i bet that i have to imagine alot more
hoe about those great "exp upgrades" you can give your units. You have to imagine alot here also.
Now remember, the dev's have implemented "a PG style of making war" here. And may i add; poorly executed.
Oke, the horsemen and it's "exp upgrades". One of them makes your Horsemen runs faster (=more hex). Why ?
Did the horses get some new diet? Macnoodles ? And there are more "unrealist" upgrades. Very Gamey.
And you know what, it all would not matter that much; if only people didn't make so much fuzz about politics!
Cause that's where people DO complain about realism alot. If only they were so critical with the units they wage war with; i would be a happier man.
PG have updates too, but they were much closer to reality (until PG 3 came out, with indeed, also over the top goodies).
It was not unusual for infantry forces to make use of horses to go someplace but not necessarily fight mounted. I'd visualize a mounted unit in Civ is a unit of force that stresses mobility and shock. Longbowmen in the hundred years war who rode mounted to terrorize French villagers were not true cavalry but did so to move and leave quickly.