2nd UU

[Absolution]

hatti: Meshedi these were the elite infantry that made up the core of the hittite standing army

Good information.
Where can I find more about it?

 

[inasnapp]

Good information.
Where can I find more about it?

it was hard enough to find that... but i tracked down some more specific information

http://suite101.com/article/the-hittite-royal-court-and-government-a386418

 

[Xyth]

I've decided this will be a major feature of 1.20 and have started exploring options. I'm not concerned with stats atm, focusing instead on matching ideas to art. I'll post a list once I've made a reasonable amount of progress.

 

[tchristensen]

Looking forward to seeing it. There are some very good models for industrial age equipment such as cannon, tanks, biplanes, fighter aircraft, bombers...that sort of thing.

 

[V3N0M]

Instead a second UU why not do what civ 5 did and make it a unique anything? Some of them could be units, some could be a second unique building, some could even be terrain improvements or even specialists and great people.

I'd make suggestions but all the easy ones have already been made. You're probably going to have to find obscure books if you want a second unit for the berbers, or the tamil, or the indonesians (a lot of mods use that country's special forces as a UU, but there's nothing really unique about those, every country has commandos and advanced infantry)

 

[Xyth]

Instead a second UU why not do what civ 5 did and make it a unique anything? Some of them could be units, some could be a second unique building, some could even be terrain improvements or even specialists and great people.

That's a possibility, though I'd prefer to try for 2 UUs each if I can. Second UBs are relatively easy (though would require some rethinking as UWs effectively fulfil that role), but anything else gets technical very quickly.

I'd make suggestions but all the easy ones have already been made. You're probably going to have to find obscure books if you want a second unit for the berbers, or the tamil, or the indonesians (a lot of mods use that country's special forces as a UU, but there's nothing really unique about those, every country has commandos and advanced infantry)

I've actually got several ideas for all 3 of the civs you mentioned. Some civs are proving trickier to find options for, but the most challenging part of the task is finding suitable art, even for some of the 'easier' civs. I'm getting there though, slowly but surely.

 

[lindsay40k]

Just popping my head in for now to say the idea of an anti-gunpowder archery unit totally appeals to me. Opens the door to grab some non-military techs (and associated Wonders) when everyone else needs guns to stay safe, and start the endgame of a culture play without waiting until you've got a bunch of gun techs to enable turtling.

 

[Simon_Jester]

The Yamato is not a good idea.
It means you can't hold more than one Battleship, it is not an advantage.

Besides, it was overrated.

...and German Super Dreadnaught.

Also overrated. The Germans have always been predominantly a land power.

 

[Xyth]

I'm still slowly working my way through each civ looking at options and art for 2nd UUs. One quick item for the moment though: I'm considering making the English UUs the Yeoman Longbow (replacing Longbowman) and the Man of War (replacing Ship of the Line), dropping the Redcoat entirely. Any feedback on this?

 

[tchristensen]

I'm still slowly working my way through each civ looking at options and art for 2nd UUs. One quick item for the moment though: I'm considering making the English UUs the Yeoman Longbow (replacing Longbowman) and the Man of War (replacing Ship of the Line), dropping the Redcoat entirely. Any feedback on this?

I like the idea.

 

[Nightstar]

I was thinking along the same lines. As I understand it, that's what they ended up using in Civ5, for that matter.

 

[inasnapp]

I think that any combination of the three would work. If it is hard to think of one UU for some civs, the English are one of the civs that have more than enough options.

 

[lindsay40k]

Redcoats as regular Riflemen, then? Sounds fair enough.

 

[Xyth]

Nothing set in stone yet, but this is where I'm at so far:

Civilization | 1st UU | 2nd UU | Alternatives
Celts | Cidainh (replaces Chariot) | Ceithern (replaces Swordsman) | Kluddargos, Gallóglach, Clansman
England * | Yeoman (replaces Longbowman) | Man of War (replaces Ship of the Line) | Redcoat, Spitfire
France | Chevalier (replaces Heavy Horseman) | Musketeer (replaces Musketman) | Francesca, Foreign Legion
Netherlands * | Watergeus (replaces Musketman) | Fluyt (replaces Galleon) |
Germany | Landsknecht (replaces Musketman) | Panzer (replaces Tank) | Teutonic Knight, Doppelsoldner, Uboat
Scandinavia | Berserker (replaces Heavy Footman) | Drekar (replaces Dromon) | Karolin
Poland | Winged Hussar (replaces Cuirassier) | | Szlachta, Uhlan, Tabor
Russia | Cossack (replaces Cavalry) | Katyusha (replaces Mobile Artillery) | Druzhina, Strelets, T-34
Hungary | Lovasíjász (replaces Horse Archer) | Huszar (replaces Cuirassier) |
Greece | Hoplite (replaces Axeman) | Trireme (replaces War Galley) | Hetairoi
Rome | Legionary (replaces Swordsman) | Ballista (replaces Catapult) |
Byzantium | Cataphract (replaces Heavy Horseman) | Flamethrower (replaces Crossbowman) | Varangian Guard
Phoenicia | Bireme (replaces Galley) | Atlas Elephant (replaces War Elephant) | Sacred Band
Spain | Almogavar (replaces Skirmisher) | Conquistador (replaces Cuirassier) | Jinete, Tercio
Portugal | Carrack (replaces Galleon) | Caçador (replaces Rifleman) |
Egypt | War Chariot (replaces Chariot) | Khopesh (replaces Swordsman) |
Nubia | Medjay (replaces Archer) | |
Ethiopia * | Sarwe (replaces ???) | Mehal Sefari (replaces Infantry) |
Berbers | Imajaghan (replaces Horse Archer) | Corsair (replaces ???) |
Mali | Kelebolo (replaces Skirmisher) | Farari (replaces Heavy Horseman) |
Swahili | Dhow (replaces Cog) | | Majeshi, Askari
Kongo | Pombos (replaces Heavy Footman) | |
Zulu | Impi (replaces Spearman) | Isikhulu (replaces Heavy Footman) |
Sumer | Vulture (replaces Axeman) | Onager Chariot (replaces Chariot) |
Amurru | Sab Qassi (replaces Archer) | Kiskuttu (replaces Axeman) |
Assyria | Redu (replaces Spearman) | Siege Ram (replaces Battering Ram) |
Hatti | Huluganni (replaces Chariot) | Meshedi (replaces ???) |
Israel | Maccabee (replaces Swordsman) | | Merkava
Arabia | Ansar (replaces Heavy Horseman) | | Camel Archer
Persia | Immortal (replaces Axeman) | Grivpanvar (replaces Heavy Horseman) | Scythed Chariot
Kushan | Asvaka (replaces Horseman) | |
Turks | Sipahi (replaces Horse Archer) | Janissary (replaces Musketman) |
Mongolia | Keshik (replaces Horseman) | Naffatun (replaces Grenadier) | Mangudai
Tibet | Khampa (replaces Horseman) | |
India | Siege Elephant (replaces Cannon) | | Sepoy, Pata, Katara, Rajput
Tamil | Aaivu (replaces Swordsman) | Dharani (replaces Dromon) | Velaikkarar
Siam | Mahout (replaces War Elephant) | | Borgfai, Wow Mohdin
Angkor | Ballista Elephant (replaces War Elephant) | Phak'ak (replaces Pikeman) |
Vietnam | Chien Binh (replaces Musketman) | Vietcong (replaces Infantry) | Cam Ve Quan, Qua (Pike), Nuo (Xbow)
Indonesia * | Silat (replaces Spearman) | Orang Laut (replaces Caravel) | Bambu Runcing
China | Cho-ko-nu (replaces Crossbowman) | Junk (replaces Caravel) | Huochong
Korea | Hwacha (replaces Bombard) | Geobukseon (replaces Galleass) |
Japan | Samurai (replaces Heavy Footman) | Yumi (replaces Longbowman) | Zero
Polynesia | Toa (replaces Spearman) | Waka (replaces Galley) |
America | Minuteman (replaces Musketman) | Navy Seal (replaces Marine) | B-17
Iroquois | Tomahawk (replaces Axeman) | Mohawk (replaces Musketman) |
Sioux | Mounted Brave (replaces Horse Archer) | Buffalo Dancer (replaces Heavy Footman) | Dog Soldier
Anasazi | Atlatl (replaces Skirmisher) | |
Aztec | Jaguar Warrior (replaces Swordsman) | Eagle Warrior (replaces ???) |
Maya | Holkan (replaces Spearman) | | Blowgun, Ah Kuy, Hul'che
Inca * | Warak'a (replaces Skirmisher) | Aucakpussak (replaces Heavy Footman) |

Notes

• Civs marked with an asterisk are ones where their existing UU has also changed. Some are name/definition changes, some are complete replacements
  
• I haven't worried too much about civs having both their UUs unlocked in similar eras. I am trying to avoid having UUs that upgrade to one another though (directly at least).
  
• The 'Alternatives' column is a mix of rejected ideas, ideas without art, and ideas not yet investigated.
  
• I'm avoiding air UUs at the moment. Just not sure I want to go there.
  
• I'm also ruling out Settler/Worker UUs. The AI just can't handle most of the interesting ideas, and UUs with economic advantages can skew things unexpectedly.
  
• Not sure about Scout/Explorer UUs. Last resort perhaps.

Let me know your thoughts and suggestions.

 

[lindsay40k]

Hungary and the Viet seem to currently upgrade from one to another, but it seems fair; the first Viet unit is one suited to defence (and thus not accumulating stacks of promotions), and the first Hungarian one is one that in my experience tends to have fairly high casualty rates.

The Khmer have two UUs that are resource-dependent anticavalry in a fairly similar time period, which is interesting.

 

[Xyth]

Hungary and the Viet seem to currently upgrade from one to another, but it seems fair; the first Viet unit is one suited to defence (and thus not accumulating stacks of promotions), and the first Hungarian one is one that in my experience tends to have fairly high casualty rates.

I'm having some trouble deciding what I want to do with the Viet and the Chinese. Even though the Viet were acknowledged for making the finest handguns of the period, they were improving an iconic Chinese invention. The art used suits the Chinese much more than the Viet anyway, and the current Chinese Musketman is actually an unused Viet unit.

The Viet could then have the Qua (Pikeman) as a UU, which I think would suit them pretty well. Dai Viet's military strength has always been in the ability and ingenuity of their common people defending their lands from more powerful invaders. The dilemma is with the Chinese UUs: the Huochong (Chinese Handgun) would be a direct upgrade from the Cho-Ku-Nu, so I'd probably have to drop the Cho-Ko-Nu for the Junk. I'm not sure if I like that or not.

As for the Hungarians, the upgrade gap between the Horse Archer and the Cuirassier is one of the widest in the game so I think it will be okay. There really isn't any other choices anyway; no other Hungarian units are as iconic as those two. It's a big problem for Poland though - the obvious choice for a second UU is the Uhlan but that would be a Cavalry replacement, which their Winged Hussar would upgrade into. A less iconic alternative is the Szlachta, the Polish equivalent of the Knight, but that has the same problem from the other direction. The Tabor (Polish-Lithuanian war wagon) would be a perfect 2nd UU but suffers from lack of art, plus I'm not what abilities it could have or what it might replace.

The Khmer have two UUs that are resource-dependent anticavalry in a fairly similar time period, which is interesting.

I may remove the Ballista Elephant's bonus against mounted units and further develop their city attacking capabilities.

 

[V3N0M]

I'm still slowly working my way through each civ looking at options and art for 2nd UUs. One quick item for the moment though: I'm considering making the English UUs the Yeoman Longbow (replacing Longbowman) and the Man of War (replacing Ship of the Line), dropping the Redcoat entirely. Any feedback on this?

You should do something like this for the Americans too. Even the civilopedia describes the SEaLs as being covert ops/anti terrorism, but them game uses them as advanced infantry. I wouldn't even give them a Ranger UU because the Army Rangers were founded as an equivalent of the Royal Marines. Instead, I'd make the first UU a minuteman, and the second UU a vehicle, most likely the M4 Sherman.

 

[Xyth]

You should do something like this for the Americans too. Even the civilopedia describes the SEaLs as being covert ops/anti terrorism, but them game uses them as advanced infantry. I wouldn't even give them a Ranger UU because the Army Rangers were founded as an equivalent of the Royal Marines. Instead, I'd make the first UU a minuteman, and the second UU a vehicle, most likely the M4 Sherman.

I have no qualms replacing the Navy Seal with a different UU if we feel there are better modern day choices with available art. Suggest away.

 

[Howard Mahler]

I would try to keep the Cho-Ku-Nu if possible; I think it is one of the best current UU.

I do not understand what the problem could be with the fast worker as in the Indian UU in BTS. How does the AI deal with it in BTS? Fast worker could fill in a gap for some civilization you are currently having trouble filling.

I'm having some trouble deciding what I want to do with the Viet and the Chinese. Even though the Viet were acknowledged for making the finest handguns of the period, they were improving an iconic Chinese invention. The art used suits the Chinese much more than the Viet anyway, and the current Chinese Musketman is actually an unused Viet unit.

The Viet could then have the Qua (Pikeman) as a UU, which I think would suit them pretty well. Dai Viet's military strength has always been in the ability and ingenuity of their common people defending their lands from more powerful invaders. The dilemma is with the Chinese UUs: the Huochong (Chinese Handgun) would be a direct upgrade from the Cho-Ku-Nu, so I'd probably have to drop the Cho-Ko-Nu for the Junk. I'm not sure if I like that or not.

As for the Hungarians, the upgrade gap between the Horse Archer and the Cuirassier is one of the widest in the game so I think it will be okay. There really isn't any other choices anyway; no other Hungarian units are as iconic as those two. It's a big problem for Poland though - the obvious choice for a second UU is the Uhlan but that would be a Cavalry replacement, which their Winged Hussar would upgrade into. A less iconic alternative is the Szlachta, the Polish equivalent of the Knight, but that has the same problem from the other direction. The Tabor (Polish-Lithuanian war wagon) would be a perfect 2nd UU but suffers from lack of art, plus I'm not what abilities it could have or what it might replace.



I may remove the Ballista Elephant's bonus against mounted units and further develop their city attacking capabilities.

 

[Xyth]

I would try to keep the Cho-Ku-Nu if possible; I think it is one of the best current UU.

Yeah, thus my hesitation. If I were to replace the Cho-Ko-Nu with the Huochong I'd try to allocate its bonuses along the same lines.

I do not understand what the problem could be with the fast worker as in the Indian UU in BTS. How does the AI deal with it in BTS? Fast worker could fill in a gap for some civilization you are currently having trouble filling.

The Fast Worker is okay as its a very simple bonus. No AI issues there, it's just a bit dull and generic. I might use it if there was a civ that had a genuine reputation for 'fast workers' of some sort, but I'm not sure there is. My note above was mostly referring to some of the more complicated ideas earlier in the thread, such as paradropping settlers.

My preference is to use military units where possible though. Some civs will always be more suited to some strategies and victory types than others, but I feel UUs with an economic focus could skew that further than I'd like.