3rd and 4th Unique Components for VP - Official thread 88.4

[JackAlexanderTR]

It worked just fine in my installation but what do i know smh

So with those changes is it compatible with 4.7.3?

 

[azum4roll]

I'm going through all the components and check which ones are DLL compatible and AI compatible.

Text key for "Can AI fully make use of this?":
Yes - AI either has knowledge of all of the abilities of the component, or will perform actions to get the full benefits with incentives provided by its other unique components, or the trigger is on something with consistent amount each game (e.g. picking a policy).
Coincidentally - AI may stumble on all of the component's benefits by accident or coincidence, but there's no extra incentive (compared to other civs) for the AI to perform these actions.
No - AI complete fails to benefit from one or more abilities of the component.

For UBs, I'm not counting the incentive to build them since most existing UBs don't have it anyway and rely entirely on them being unique.
The ability of playing against these components is also not considered, but may be mentioned in Remarks if AI has significant troubles playing against them.

Civilization	Component	Fully implemented in DLL	Can AI fully make use of this?	Remarks
America	Monitor	No	Yes	AdjacentCityDefenseMod is unimplemented.
America	Homestead	No	Coincidentally	AI doesn't know about the tile stealing and may piss off potential friends.
Arabia	Hashemite Raider	Yes	Yes?	AI doesn't know that pillaging damages adjacent enemies, so they won't pillage just because of that. That said, they're very likely to pillage when it's free.
Arabia	Bimaristan	Yes	Yes
Assyria	Iron Chariot	No	No
Assyria	Lamassu Gate	Yes	Yes
Austria	Grenzer	No	Yes	AI do marriages anyway, and this is a unique mechanic so no extra incentive is needed.
Austria	Schützenstand	Yes	Yes
Aztecs	Eagle	No	No
Aztecs	Huey Teocalli	No	Coincidentally	AI gets golden ages anyway, though there is no extra incentive.
Babylon	Sabum Kibitum	No	Coincidentally	AI levels up units anyway, but they won't prioritize XP buildings and keep units alive.
Babylon	E-temenanki	No	Yes	UA should make AI invest more.
Brazil	Amazonas	No	Coincidentally (leaning on no)	AI should notice the attack refresh on kill, but they won't actively go for it.
Brazil	Sambadrome	Yes	Yes
Byzantium	Dromon	No	Coincidentally (leaning on no)	AI wastes attacks on units that would die on the start of their turn anyway. AI playing against them also has no idea what they can do, and may try to run despite certain death.
Byzantium	Hippodrome	No	Yes (see remarks)	Everything's passive, but AI won't pick policies/beliefs for WLTKD synergy. They can be taught to do so if this is fully implemented in DLL.
Carthage	Suffet	No	No
Carthage	Tophet	No	Coincidentally	AI does buy a lot of units, but there is no incentive to buy more.
Celts	Scythed Chariot	Yes	Coincidentally	As with all AOE damage (splash, pilum, overrun, citadel), AI has no idea the unit can do that.
Celts	Oppidum	No	Yes	AI doesn't know about the +10HP to the nearest city, but it's so minor so whatever.
China	Baochuan	No	No
China	Examination Hall	No	Yes	UA makes their cities grow faster.
Denmark	Longship	Yes	Yes
Denmark	Andelsbevægelse	Yes	Yes
Egypt	Mamluk	No	Coincidentally (leaning on no)	AI doesn't know about the +1 move on attack, and so won't plan for a retreat path even if they could.
Egypt	Nilometer	No	Yes
England	Longbowman	Yes	Yes	Broken unit.
England	Steam Mill	Yes	Yes
Ethiopia	Chewa	Yes	Coincidentally	Like all plagues, AI doesn't know about them being inflicted. Especially troublesome for those playing against them.
Ethiopia	Monolithic Church	No	Yes	AI gets beliefs and policies anyway, and there's no need to prevent them from mixing policy trees since they won't.
France	SPAD S.VII	Yes	Yes
France	Salon	No	No	Not even a human would bother theming buildings manually.
Germany	Krupp Gun	No	No	AI won't actively find irrelevant units (e.g. civilians) to attack to boost subsequent attacks, nor prioritize killing units on important tiles to pillage them.
Germany	Bräuhaus	No	Yes	All passive bonuses, except gifting units to CS which the UA incentivizes. Ideology yield types are unlikely to influence ideology choices.
Greece	Klepht	No	Yes	Combat is inevitable.
Greece	Agora	No	Yes	As a civ with diplomatic focus, AI already tends to perform more diplomatic missions.
Huns	Tarkhan	No	Coincidentally (leaning on no)	UNITAI_FAST_ATTACK is not part of a settler escort formation. It's unlikely that the AI would escort with this unit. AI units only pillage for own health and strategic purposes (unless free pillage).
Huns	Ulticur	No	Coincidentally	There is no incentive to put units near CS when not already aiming to bully/declare war (which removes the gold per turn for a while).
Inca	Chasqui	No	Coincidentally (leaning on no)	It's extremely unlikely for a scout to be in friendly territory. It should always be exploring unless lured into combat.
Inca	Qullqa	No	No	AI always does its best to avoid starvation, and if it's not possible, reduce the negative growth rate. But this building wants you to either grow normally or completely ignore food.
India	Dhanurdhara	No	Coincidentally	AI won't actively pursue kills with this unit. The yield on level up is actually better on high level AI (like the old Dojo), so it may compensate.
India	Qila	No	Coincidentally	There is no incentive to go for policies/beliefs with higher city strength.
Indonesia	Djong	Yes	Coincidentally	It's a mobile citadel relying on enemy AI to not know about it and ram it with melee. With no bulk whatsoever.
Indonesia	Kampong	Yes	Yes
Iroquois	Prowler	Yes	Yes	AI still doesn't know about withdraw from melee, so it has troubles playing against this.
Iroquois	Tadodaho	No	Coincidentally	AI doesn't know that making an Embassy gives more yields than using the unit to gain influence.
Japan	Yamato	No	No	AI doesn't protect the unit, nor does it focus on sinking it when playing against it.
Japan	Kabuki Theater	No	Yes	All passive bonuses.
Korea	Turtle Ship	Yes	Yes
Korea	Chaebol	No	Coincidentally	The bonus is passive, but there's no incentive to get more international trade routes to boost the bonus.
Maya	Holkan	No	Yes	It rewards what recon units do.
Maya	Pitz Court	No	No	AI never tries to keep its units alive.
Mongolia	Black Tug	Yes	Coincidentally	Lacking the incentive to pillage. The tactical AI doesn't seem to be able to update the unit's base CS mid-simulation. Might result in overconfidence or underconfidence when attacking and positioning.
Mongolia	Yassa Court	No	Yes	The leader has high flavors for conquering cities.
Morocco	Corsair	No	Yes (mostly)	Only lacking the incentive to kill with this unit.
Morocco	Riad	No	Yes	All passive bonuses.
Netherlands	Goedendag	Yes	Yes
Netherlands	Waag	No	Yes	AI does actively settle for monopolies.
Ottomans	Great Bombard	No	Yes	AI does not know about the self damage, but it should be okay since AI tends to retreat low health units instead of attacking.
Ottomans	Tersane	No	Lua hack	AI automatically builds this when a GG/GA is born in or adjacent to a city that doesn't already have one. Which could be optimal, but it might also want the GG/GA for the combat aura instead right now.
Persia	Qizilbash	Yes	Yes
Persia	Pairidaeza	No	Yes	UA gives more and stronger Golden Ages, and incentive to get more.
Poland	Pancerny	Yes	Yes (mostly)	The only problem is that skirmishers have bad damage.
Poland	Barbican	No	Coincidentally	AI doesn't know about the garrison attack bonus. There's no extra incentive to garrison a ranged unit.
Polynesia	Koa	N/A	N/A	It's being replaced.
Polynesia	Marae	Yes	Yes	Very simple bonus.
Portugal	Cacador	No	Yes	AI actually is better with this since they get more free levels.
Portugal	University of Coimbra	No	No	AI can only expend Admirals through Voyage of Discovery, but that belongs to HomelandAI which is run after TacticalAI. All ships get their moves back, but they don't get a chance to move again.
Rome	Ballista	No	Coincidentally	Sadly, AI doesn't always bring a General to battle.
Rome	Legion	No	Coincidentally	See above. Thankfully they can build roads and forts now, or they would get a No. BuilderTaskingAI still doesn't know about the conditional work rate changes, so build priority might be negatively affected.
Rome	Latifundium	No	Coincidentally	AI doesn't know about Figs and the tile claim, and thus won't place this optimally.
Russia	Licorne	Yes	Yes
Russia	Pogost	No	Coincidentally	There's no incentive to get Banking and Architecture since the Stage 2 and 3 buildings aren't considered unique. They might even be avoided since all 3 other unique components are on the lower side of the tech tree.
Shoshone	Yellow Brow	No	Coincidentally	AI doesn't know there's a conditional +20% CS. Might quit fortifying thinking it will survive when it actually can't.
Shoshone	Buffalo Pound	No	Yes
Siam	Seir Morb	No	No	AI usually uses up all unit movements.
Siam	Elephant Camp	No	Yes	Bonuses are passive from allying CS, which the UA incentivizes.
Songhai	Sofa	No	Coincidentally	AI doesn't know there's a conditional +15% CS. Simulations might be off. There's also no guarantee that AI brings this unit along with mounted units to war fronts.
Songhai	Gumey	No	Yes	Should be fine, as long as AI knows how to optimize trade routes through villages.
Spain	Armada	No	Yes	Setting the CS on turn start and nowhere else is actually good for the AI.
Spain	Bullring	No	Coincidentally	AI won't build Public Works unless it's unhappy, but at the same time, WLTKD isn't hard to trigger.
Sweden	Hakkapeliitta	Yes	Yes
Sweden	Bastu	Yes	Yes
Venice	Great Galleass	Yes	Yes
Venice	Fusta	Yes	Yes	Why does Venice have 5UC?
Venice	Laguna	Yes	Yes
Zulu	InDuna/Isibaya	No	No	AI won't avoid resources or make sure there's a stacking unit when placing a citadel. AI NEVER places a citadel adjacent to enemy units.
Zulu	Iziko	No	Yes	AI actually is better with this since they get more free levels.

 

[phantomaxl1207]

Last I played against Indonesia, they kept their Djong's in Cities to make besieging them more painful, so coincidentally.

 

[snaphance]

Tried using this mod, it kept telling me that I needed other mods.

 

[jarcast2]

Tried using this mod, it kept telling me that I needed other mods.

3rd and 4th Unique Components for VP - Official thread

Bringing this up here. Thinking about changing the Polynesia UU2 to a boat. There is a possibility with current congress proposal that the Koa will be kicked off the scout. That means the Koa either moves somewhere else, or it is replaced entirely I'm considering giving Polynesia a unique...

forums.civfanatics.com

 

[azum4roll]

The big table is done.

 

[Recursive]

AI doesn't know about the tile stealing and may piss off potential friends.

Easy enough to use CvDiplomacyAI::IsPlayerBadTheftTarget().

 

[azum4roll]

Easy enough to use CvDiplomacyAI::IsPlayerBadTheftTarget().

It's a building though. Hard to skip. I think it's really a design issue.

 

[pineappledan]

One does not simply be America and play nice with neighbours. Especially not with how the AI personality for Washington is weighted

 

[CppMaster]

@pineappledan do you have an opinion which modmod civ would be the best to integrate after 4UC integration? I remember I liked Prussian.

 

[pineappledan]

I’m biased towards civs that occupy new space on a TSL map, so I would oppose a European civ being added purely on principle. I would much rather see a Central Asian or American civ, or a de-blobbing of China/India take precedence.

 

[hokath]

I think you're going to find it hard to add new civs.
We all have very different preferences for that sort of thing, what I would vote for is probably very different to what you would.

I remember a long time ago we talked about Sumer because it highlighted the events system, which was new to VP.
However that has aged like the fine milk that it is.

 

[pineappledan]

Personally, I always play with 7 custom civs so there is a pool of a nice round 50 civs to play from in my games.
The idea of custom civs being added into VP is something I am ambivalent about, since it feels too much like a change made for change's sake, and like we're deliberately looking for ways to drive a wedge in the community.
3 years ago I took a poll to integrate Israel, it got approved, I uploaded the whole thing onto the github, and it simply never got packaged in as an extra piece of VP, and now I'm kind of glad it didn't.

 

[CppMaster]

and it simply never got packaged in as an extra piece of VP, and now I'm kind of glad it didn't.

Why and why?
Increasing variety when it doesn't disturb balance too much is desirable imho.

 

[pineappledan]

The mod has a Kibbutz improvement that is a direct reference to the modern state of Israel and I have... um... gone a bit soft on my support for Israel as of late?

 

[CppMaster]

Let's not drag politics into this... We have Russia in base VP after all

 

[pineappledan]

Russia, like or not, was a world power for centuries, and was still one of two world powers within the lifetimes of many people here. Omitting them would be a massive oversight and impoverishment if the goal of the game is in any way to depict history and historical actors.

Israel was never such a powerful state as Russia. At most it was a vassal of Assyria, then Persia, and now America. Its graduation to major civ would be purely at the discretion of us modders, as a tip of the hat to their cultural and religious relevance, and to the many scientific and cultural achievements of the Jewish people. Also Israel is sort of already in the game as a city-state, which is probably the more appropriate depiction of their geopolitical influence.

I've long held that the largest oversight regarding most historically relevant state that is not included into the CiV roster is the Qing/Manchus. The Israel civ was put to a vote for integration before we had a Manchu civ.

 

[CppMaster]

Ok, so first you would integrate this one, correct?

Manchus for VP

Manchus Download here (Mega Link) Use with Promotion Flags highly recommended (in-game settings option) Using Squads Group Movement by L. Vern also Highly recommended Leader: Kangxi UA: Eight Banners Non-Siege Land Military Units Gain the Eight Banners promotion. Whenever you gain a land tile...

forums.civfanatics.com

 

[pineappledan]

That’s my top candidate re: cultures, yes.
Unique Tungusic language/culture group
Fills in a bit of that big blank spot in Siberia (sort of, not really, but close)
Deblobs China a bit
Depicts largest empire in world history that isn’t already in the game (4th largest by landmass ever; 2nd largest by % share of global population)

Specific components and design can be downstream of the reality that the Manchus are just a really big part of world history.

 

[pineappledan]

Given total design space and freedom to add anything to civ 5 VP I would endeavor to add the following civs, based on my own priorities:

• Chola (Dravidian culture and a terrific way to de-blob India)
• Manchus (Tungusic culture and China deblobber)
• An Amazonian civ (eg. Tupi, Guarani, Marajoaran; we have 2 civs in South America right now and only 1 of them is pre-Colombian)
• A Patagonian/Auricanian civ (eg. Mapuche or Tehuelche; we have 2 civs in South America right now and only 1 of them is pre-Colombian)
• A Pacific Northwest civ (eg. Tlingit or Haida; we have a giant blank spot on the West Coast and only 2 American civs north of Mexico)
• A Mississippian civ (eg. Choctaw, Caddo, Osage; This is the closest thing aside from the PNW that the Americas has to a true civilization with monumental architecture and hierarchical societies north of Mexico, and we currently only have 2 of those)
• An Algic Indigenous civ (eg. Cree, Ojibway; This is one of the largest and most diverse surviving language families with the most surviving speakers, whose original range covers a massive area that has no current representation in civ 5, and we only 2 American civs north of Mexico)