(4-VT) Espionage - Changes to Counterspies

[amateurgamer88]

Original Proposal here.

Proposal:

• Spies can no longer be killed. Instead, they are captured if there is a counterspy in the City.
• Once you capture a Spy, you get options to pick from. More options are unlocked behind buildings and Policies. (More details below)
• The level restrictions for counterspy missions are removed, giving more options to use also low-level spies defensively (same as the original proposal).

Spoiler Options for counterspy upon capturing enemy spies :

Counterspies get the following options to pick from:

1. Let the spy flee (Captured spy returns to owner and can be redeployed afterwards)
2. Imprison the spy (Captured spy is unavailable to the owner for [5 * X] Turns where X is the Spy Rank of captured Spy and there's a diplomatic malus with the spy owner)
3. Release Spy after ransom is paid (Must have Constabulary. City owner gains GPT while spy owner loses the same GPT for 10 turns. GPT is { [1 Gold per Turn, scaling with Era] * X } where X is the Spy Rank of captured Spy)
4. Release Spy after intelligence has been gathered (Must have Police Station. City owner gains [100 * X] Science where X is the Spy Rank of captured Spy.)
5. Make Spy into a Double Agent (Must have Double Agents Tenet. Gain 1 Science per turn in all Cities for [3 * X] turns where X is the Spy Rank of captured Spy. {can stack})
6. Make effective propaganda with Spy (Must have Police State Tenet. +10% CS to all military Units for [5 * X] turns where X is the Spy Rank of captured Spy. {can stack})

Bletchley Park increases yields gained from Options (3) and (4) while extending the duration of Options (5) and (6) by 25%.

For all the options above, missions will scale (if possible) according to how long the spy has been operating. For example, if a siphon mission gave 300 Gold for 20 turns, the mission gives 150 Gold if the Spy only operated for 10 turns.

Spoiler Spy Capture :

Spy capture is determined through Progress which is affect by Security Level and Spy Resistance. The idea is that, once Progress reaches 100%, then the spy is captured.

Security Level determines the base Progress through the equation: Security Level / 5. Therefore, higher Security Level Cities starts with higher Progress which speeds up spy capture.

Spy Resistance then either increases or decreases Progress each turn depending on if it's positive or negative. The higher the Spy Resistance in a City, the faster enemy spies can be captured.

Let's say we have a City with Security Level of 40 and Spy Resistance of 5. Then, the base Progress will be 8 and the spy will be captured after 19 turns. 19 turns will be shown to the player on the UI as the player decide upon what mission to pick. This 19 turns won't change even if the City gained or lost Security Level and Spy Resistance between mission start and mission end.

If the mission is shorter than the projected turns or Spy Resistance is negative, then the spy won't ever be captured.

Spoiler Spy Retirement :

Spies will go into Retirement as a way to "reset" their level.

Once a spy hits level 3, then it will have a Retirement counter of 5. Once the spy has been captured 5 times, then the spy will be forced to retire and a level 1 spy will be the replacement.

Rationale:

• Kill chance relies on RNG. By removing kill chance, Level 3 Spies don't get "reset" but they are now double-edged swords where you can potentially make your opponent stronger.
• Makes counterspy missions feel similar to spy missions. You get options upon enemy spy capture and pick one that benefits you instead of just delaying your competition.
• Capital of Tall Civilizations won't feel as punished by all the spies sent their way because there can be gains from killing enemy spies with the right building and policy tree or ways to delay them.

 

[Recursive]

@amateurgamer88 So to clarify, as opposed to axatin's proposal, the spy missions still successfully execute, but the spy is captured after (instead of killed)?

 

[amateurgamer88]

@amateurgamer88 So to clarify, as opposed to axatin's proposal, the spy missions still successfully execute, but the spy is captured after (instead of killed)?

Mission will execute partially successfully. I mentioned:

For all the options above, missions will scale (if possible) according to how long the spy has been operating. For example, if a siphon mission gave 300 Gold for 20 turns, the mission gives 150 Gold if the Spy only operated for 10 turns.

If your spy is captured early, you gain less yields or the duration of some mission is reduced. Basically, you get something out of it depending on what mission you pursue.

Yes, spy is captured instead of being killed and the counterspy side then gets an event that gives them available options.

 

[Recursive]

Mission will execute partially successfully. I mentioned:

For all the options above, missions will scale (if possible) according to how long the spy has been operating. For example, if a siphon mission gave 300 Gold for 20 turns, the mission gives 150 Gold if the Spy only operated for 10 turns.

If your spy is captured early, you gain less yields or the duration of some mission is reduced. Basically, you get something out of it depending on what mission you pursue.

Yes, spy is captured instead of being killed and the counterspy side then gets an event that gives them available options.

Under what circumstances would the spy get captured early? Currently they can only get killed upon mission completion.

 

[azum4roll]

But in this model, all spies will eventually become level 3 since there isn't anything that resets their level. I think it's better if we also let the owner choose to not pay ransom and (pre-)order the spy to commit suicide (using an event that triggers if the target civ picks Options 2-6).

 

[der_weihnachtsmann]

I think the yields need to be looked at. They are far too low. Like 200 Science? Or 1 Science per turn for having a special tenet?

 

[amateurgamer88]

Under what circumstances would the spy get captured early? Currently they can only get killed upon mission completion.

I've edited the OP to explain how it works. Below is a general summary:

We use Progress as a way to gauge how close the spy is captured. Once Progress is 100%, then the spy will be captured.

Progress = ( Security Level / 5 ) + ( Spy Resistance * X ) where X is the number of turns needed for Progress to reach 100%. X will be displayed to the player on the UI while they pick an mission to complete.

If X is longer than mission length or Spy Resistance is negative, then the spy will never be captured.

But in this model, all spies will eventually become level 3 since there isn't anything that resets their level. I think it's better if we also let the owner choose to not pay ransom and (pre-)order the spy to commit suicide (using an event that triggers if the target civ picks Options 2-6).

I've edited the OP to include a "retirement" mechanic. Once a spy reaches level 3, the spy must retire after 5 captures. Once retired, a level 1 spy will be the replacement. Note that I picked 5 randomly because I don't know what's the right number right now.

I think the yields need to be looked at. They are far too low. Like 200 Science? Or 1 Science per turn for having a special tenet?

I don't have any data to know what's too high or low. If we go ahead with this approach, we'll need player feedback to better balance the numbers. I'm just listing numbers because they are needed for proposals to be considered. I'm also unsure how many yields is acceptable for counterspies. That's a different discussion altogether.

 

[axatin]

I like the ideas and the approch of the proposal, this is an interesting way to go.

Some issues with what‘s currently proposed:

• Longer missions will be more affected than shorter ones. In particular stealing technologies will be impossible to complete if spies are caught every 20 to 30 turns. (Is it possible to have a player partially steal a tech, and to give them research progress for a certain technology only? Needs to be tested)
• Missions like the copy great work one will be further weakened: Unlike the siphon missions they can‘t have partial results.
• Many details need to be discussed, for example: city security gives a maximum mission length decrease of only 10%. The numbers for the advanced options are too low, as already said. The level of the Counterspy currently has no effect. An additional bonus has to be given to the current +50% kill chance mission: If all kill chances are removed it will be the only one without any extra bonus.

There are many good ideas here but I think the proposal still needs to be discussed a bit further. More generally, proposals like this one come close to the type of larger rework that should probably be tested in a modmod first before having them implemented into standard VP for a duration of at least 3 months.

 

[azum4roll]

Modmodding is hard when everything's in the DLL.

 

[Stalker0]

There are many good ideas here but I think the proposal still needs to be discussed a bit further.

I agree. Its an interesting concept, but this completely changes the game of spies....we would have to redo all of the mission yields and durations with this mechanic in mind. That's not something you can just drop in, we really need to craft out how it would look.

 

[Recursive]

I like the ideas and the approch of the proposal, this is an interesting way to go.

Some issues with what‘s currently proposed:

• Longer missions will be more affected than shorter ones. In particular stealing technologies will be impossible to complete if spies are caught every 20 to 30 turns. (Is it possible to have a player partially steal a tech, and to give them research progress for a certain technology only? Needs to be tested)
• Missions like the copy great work one will be further weakened: Unlike the siphon missions they can‘t have partial results.
• Many details need to be discussed, for example: city security gives a maximum mission length decrease of only 10%. The numbers for the advanced options are too low, as already said. The level of the Counterspy currently has no effect. An additional bonus has to be given to the current +50% kill chance mission: If all kill chances are removed it will be the only one without any extra bonus.

There are many good ideas here but I think the proposal still needs to be discussed a bit further. More generally, proposals like this one come close to the type of larger rework that should probably be tested in a modmod first before having them implemented into standard VP for a duration of at least 3 months.

I agree. Its an interesting concept, but this completely changes the game of spies....we would have to redo all of the mission yields and durations with this mechanic in mind. That's not something you can just drop in, we really need to craft out how it would look.

I agree, this needs further refinement.

Proposal vetoed.

Reason: Insufficiently specific - needs further elaboration considering how much this will change about the spy system.