Suggestion for Game of the Month Announcements

[Deckhand]

Often someone's game is affected when they forget a difference between vanilla, warlords, bts.

Perhaps the announcement posts could include a short summary of differences or a link to where they are identified/discussed.

Civic switches in golden ages are only without anarchy in bts.
You can only stop the spaceship by capturing a capital in bts. (i think)
Seige can't kill in bts (only).
More techs, units, buildings, wonders: bts > warlords > vanilla
Great Generals - warlords, bts
Corporations, espionage slider - bts only (I don't think this one trips up anyone).

What do you think of this idea? What else should be mentioned?

 

[psparky]

Good idea. In fact I have started a similar list just this week.

I planned on focusing on the "harder to find" items like the first three in your list, rather than the major features.

As an inexperienced player, one problem I have encountered is that many (but not all) of the changes listed in the manuals were also patched into the older games. So as I only play the latest (final) patches, they are not different at all.

From your list, I didn't know the civics/golden age only applied to BtS, and I believe the spaceship has to travel, and hence the opportunity to stop it applies, only in BtS.

Two for the list would be:
Extra uses for forts in Bts (give resource, act as city) (Warlords?)
Limit on number of planes in city

 

[neilmeister]

From your list, I didn't know the civics/golden age only applied to BtS,

I am embarressed to admit just how many times I have made this mistake. You think i would learn

 

[babybluepants]

Yeah, it can be frustrating. The two I always forget when playing Vanilla are that you can't farm at a river delta, and that chop hammers go into a build instantly. I've screwed up plenty of wonder builds by forgetting to switch queue.

There are a lot of differences, if you were to get into specifics. Might be a bit much to put into the announcement. Those are already overly long, in my personal opinion. Is there another way to do this?

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Civic switches in golden ages are only without anarchy in bts.

Unless you have the Spiritual Trait, which confused me because I made a Civic switch and belated realized "oh no, I'm playing Warlords!" Then, of course, I was confused for a few turns as to why there was no Anarchy, until I thought to check my Leader's Traits.

when playing Vanilla are that you can't farm at a river delta

I'm not sure what that means--is it just where the graphic LOOKS like you should have Fresh Water access but you don't? Will the hover text at least be correct in telling you whether or not you have "Fresh Water" access on the relevant square?

There are a lot of differences, if you were to get into specifics.

Exactly. If you get into the nitty-gritty details, there are a lot of subtleties.

Vanilla, a captured City coming out of revolt gets a free turn of production, but only if you have selected a build item--and the game does not force you select a build item.

BtS does the opposite on both counts, not giving you a free turn of production and forcing you to select a build item.

I forget about Warlords.


Vanilla gives 50% Hammer value to Wealth, Research, and Culture but then sends those build items through your multipliers, while Wardlords and BtS give you the full Hammer value but don't also use the relevant multiplying buildings.

The implications here are that in Vanilla, building Wealth in a City with a Bank and no other buildings will be better than building Research in said City, since the Wealth build item would get 75% of its original Hammer value (X * 50% * 150%), while in Warlords or BtS you'd rather build Wealth in a City that has a Forge without caring about whether the City has multiplier buildings like Libraries and Banks.

Might be a bit much to put into the announcement. Those are already overly long, in my personal opinion. Is there another way to do this?

Yeah, it would be a lot to put into an announcement, but a link could work. Maybe Deckhand can volunteer to collect all of the results--maybe by first also opening a thread in a different forum just to get more responses--like the Strategy & Tips Forum, test out all gathered info for accuracy, create a Strategy Article in the Strategy Articles Forum with the collected answers, and then PM the game admins asking them to add a link to said article in their Pre-game Discussion threads' templates.

 

[AlanH]

There are a lot of differences, if you were to get into specifics. Might be a bit much to put into the announcement. Those are already overly long, in my personal opinion. Is there another way to do this?

If someone wants to compile an accurate and useful list, I am happy to put it into supplementary information page on the GOTM server that can be linked from every announcement and Release page.

Alternatively, it could be a separate sticky thread in this forum with links to it, which would make it easier for any gotm staff mod to edit it with updates, enhancements and corrections.

[Edit: X-Posted]

 

[psparky]

Well, I'll defer to Deckhand, as it's his thread, if he would like to take up Dhoomstriker's suggestion that he collect the information. If not, I'll volunteer to try to publish a list for review.

chop hammers go into a build instantly

BBP, is this referring to the BUFFY feature that automatically stops workers a turn before the chop finishes, that is not included in HOF?

 

[babybluepants]

No. If a chop comes into your city in Warlords/BTS, you can switch your build at any time during that turn to whatever you like. In Vanilla, the chop hammers go directly into whatever is being built at that moment.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

A further implication for the "immediately realized" Hammers in Vanilla is that if you are building Wealth, Research, or Culture as a build item or do not have a build item in the build queue at all, then the Hammers from a Forest Chop simply disappear in a puff of smoke! Gone! No Hammers for you!

 

[psparky]

A further implication for the "immediately realized" Hammers in Vanilla is that if you are building Wealth, Research, or Culture as a build item or do not have a build item in the build queue at all, then the Hammers from a Forest Chop simply disappear in a puff of smoke! Gone! No Hammers for you!

Wow that's terrible! Does the no-item-in-the-build-queue situation occur if the previous item was just completed by normal production, or even by another chop on the same turn?

I thought that unused hammers were saved up and applied to a later build - is that how it works post-vanilla? In any case, I will have to improve my sometimes haphazzard chopping strategy.

 

[Deckhand]

Well, I'll defer to Deckhand, as it's his thread, if he would like to take up Dhoomstriker's suggestion that he collect the information. If not, I'll volunteer to try to publish a list for review.

@psparky, I accept your offer.

Spoiler :

My plate is rather full; it would have taken me a long time to do this.

Spoiler :

now let's see if I can start and finish GOTM67.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

Wow that's terrible! Does the no-item-in-the-build-queue situation occur if the previous item was just completed by normal production, or even by another chop on the same turn?

No, not really.

If you have a build item in the build queue that can receive Hammers (i.e. not Wealth, not Research, not Commerce) then you should get the Hammers.

When you CAPTURE a City in Vanilla, you are not prompted to select a build item and therefore you need to remember to do it manually. However, when you COMPLETE a build item, you are correctly prompted to select a new build item immediately--so, for completing a build item, you do not have to worry. That said, I have not played with the "minimize pop-ups" game option, which supposedly allows you to delay your build queue selections until the end of the turn, so I have no clue what happens when that game option is in use (i.e. that's a hint of something else that you could test).

Another Chop on the same turn would not matter, either, since you do not actually "complete" a build item until after you end your turn.

There could, be, of course, another related issue to Chopping too many Forests at once--and that is having "excessive" overflow Hammers (more than twice the cost of the build item being obtained in Hammers). Those excess overflow Hammers are discarded. So, yeah, sometimes it helps to stagger your Forest Chopping across different turns, for this other reason of potentially accidentally having "way too many Hammers" and having the game say to you: "look, I'll let some of them overflow from this build item to the next one, but not THAT many--the rest, I will just have to get rid of for you."

I thought that unused hammers were saved up and applied to a later build - is that how it works post-vanilla?

Overflow Hammers--i.e. Hammers above and beyond the cost of a build item--are also stored in Vanilla, too. So, in most "normal cases," things work as you would expect.


If you're going to make a report about this info, then you had best plan to test this stuff out. Therefore, you might as well be prepared to use the World Builder to help speed up the process--for example, adding a stack of Workers to one square lets you instant-Chop a Forest, while adding a stack of Military Units next to the City of an AI that you have already declared war on will let you instant-capture a City. The goal would be to look at each issue on each of Vanilla, Warlords, and BtS and report the subtle differences of each game version.



There are some differences that you could probably ignore, such as which Civics a Leader has across different game versions (sometimes they change), since that info is easy enough to find quickly in each game. However, the more subtle differences, such as changes to the benefits of a Unique Unit across game versions (the Aztec's Jaguar is one such example) are not something that a player would think to look up in the Civilopedia, thus I think that it would be good to capture this info, too. Some of this info might be available on the Info Centre pages... check out the top of this page and look for the drop-down menu options... General, Hosted Sites, Civ 5, etc... hover your mouse over top of the Civ 4 one, and then you should get links to an Info Centre page for each of BtS, Warlords, and Vanilla (although they don't use the wording "Vanilla").

Good luck!

 

[psparky]

I've decided to publish a work-in-progress draft in this thread for review/comments.

I guess everyone will have their own opinions about appropriate content, and how to organize and present it. I know my efforts will fall short of some people's expectations; sorry for that.

Most recent discussions on Civfanatics treat BTS as the standard game. I decided to go with that and compile a list of what a BTS player would see as different in Warlords, and a list of further differences for Vanilla. I am aiming for a checklist that could be read in two or three minutes, rather than a detailed guide - I'm assuming most people already know this stuff, and just want a quick reminder. Hopefully it still has some value to less experienced players, or players moving Vanilla->Warlords->BTS, by giving a list of things to find out about. I've put in a few links, and hope to add some more.

The lists have been generated by checking all the official manuals, all the patch changelogs, info in this thread, scanning reports from the last few months of GOTMs to see what people were forgetting, checking the online civilopedia and info centre pages, some spreadsheets, and searching the forums for lots of phases like "changed in bts". I even listened to an old Podcast where the 3.19 patch was discussed. Where possible, most of the items have been checked in the in-game civilopedia, which seems to provide the most reliable and up-to-date information. I have not checked anything that is not detailed in the civilopedia; hopefully someone with a bit more experience can test anything contentious, as I would not be confident that I had conducted the tests correctly. I have only included unverified information from reliable sources, so I don't anticipate many problems.

The lists do not cover ALL the differences (yet?), but in the end I put in almost everything I found - maybe too much.

Warlords:

• Anarchy can occur during Golden Age, first Golden Age uses two Great Persons (not one), no +100% GPP
• Space win occurs at launch (so no opportunity to capture capital to prevent win), all components must be built, different tech requirements for components
• Siege can kill, no Flank attack against siege
• Key interface differences - no prechop control, no WHEOOHRN indicator, no capitulation alert, cannot examine captured cities?
• Stonehenge and Obelisks/Monuments obsolete at Calendar (not Astronomy)
• Simple air combat and no air promotions, no XP from airports, unlimited air units per city (not max 4, 8 with Airport)
• Caste System no +1 from Workshop, Slavery low upkeep (not medium), Emancipation no upkeep (not low), Environmentalism no +2 from Windmills but gets +1 from Jungle and Forest, State Property no +10%
• Expansive gives 50% worker bonus (not 25%) (see below for further change in Vanilla)
• Railroads require Coal (Oil not an alternative), no Forest Preserve
• Simple forts (can only be built within own culture borders, do not give access to resources, cannot house naval or air units)
• Factories no +2 from Coal and Oil
• Cavalry does not require Rifling, Trireme does not require Metal Casting, Grenadier requires Chemistry (not Military Science)
• Greek Phalanx replaces Spearman (not Axeman) and no free March promotion, Japanese Samurai no free Drill I
• Barrage available to Armored Units
• Great General generation needs less combat experience
• No Blockade, no Sea Patrol, no Pillage of naval trade routes
• Trade by river does not require Sailing, can trade obsolete resources?
• No Espionage Points system, Spy requires Scotland Yard national wonder, demographics always visible
• No Corporations
• No Colonies (no specific Overseas Maintenance Cost), no City Liberation
• No Random Events
• No Advanced Flight, Aesthetics, Laser, Military science, Stealth, Superconductors, different tech requirements for: Fibre Optics, Robotics, Computers
• No Airship, Anti-tank Infantry, Attack Submarine, Cuirassier, Guided Missile, Missile Cruiser, Mobile Artillery, Mobile SAM, Paratrooper, Privateer, Ship of the Line, Tactical Nuke
• No Customs House, Industrial Park, Intelligence Agency, Levee, Public Transportation, Security Bureau
• No Apostolic Palace, Cristo Redentor, Mausoleum of Maussollos, Moai Statues, National Park, Scwedagon Paya, Statue of Zeus.
• Parthenon requires only Polytheism (not +Aesthetics), Sistine Chapel requires Theology (not Music) and no +5 per State building, Notre Dame requires Music (not Engineering), Hagia Sophia requires Engineering (not Theology)
• Less civs and leaders <Added in BtS>, Augustus Caesar is Creative and Organized (not Industrious and Imperialistic)

Vanilla (in addition to above):

• Building research/culture/wealth gets 50% (not 100%) of , and bonuses from Library/Bank etc apply, but not from Forge etc (opposite to WL and BtS) (so often better to build research rather than wealth in vanilla)
• No Great Wall, Temple of Artemis, University of Sankore
• West Point needs a level 5 unit (not 6), Space Elevator requires only Robotics (not +Satellites)
• No Trebuchet, Trireme
• Chariot does not get +100% against Axeman, siege can receive collateral damage
• Civil Service does not require Mathematics (Oracle slingshot affected)
• Can preselect an item to build in captured cities for free turn of production when they emerge from resistance
• Production from chops happens immediately on completion, no opportunity to change build target that turn
• Production from chop is lost when building research/culture/wealth or when no production item is selected
• River deltas provide fresh water to less tiles
• No gold from excess production overflow?
• Expansive gives no worker bonus, but +3 (not +2)
• Bureaucracy medium upkeep (not high), Representation gives +2 (not +3),
• Barracks give 4 XP (not 3), cost 60 (not 50)
• No Stable, no trade route from Castle, no bombardment protection from Walls or Castle
• Pointless Forts (no City Garrison or City Raider bonuses, remove forests in same tile, can be used by enemy)
• Aztec Jaguar gets +25% Jungle defence, but not Woodsman I
• Pinch does not require Gunpowder
• Can see units on foreign ships
• No Great Generals
• No Vassals
• No Unique Buildings
• Less civilizations and leaders <Added in WL> and many leaders have different traits <See Old Traits column here>

Still under investigation:

• See items with "?" above
• Possible difference in the way production bonuses and overflows work - not related to gold from overflow
• Shrines immune to nukes - is this worth mentioning? Where does the difference occur, or are all versions patched to be the same.
• Any significant changes resulting from Unofficial Patch getting included in BUFFY?

Far too many people to credit them all here, but if I used your input, then thanks!

 

[Conquistador 63]

Good job!

I thought it was worth mentioning the differences quoted below (haven't checked latest status after all those patches):

Here is what I have learned:
· A Galley cannot enter a non-coastal tile, unless the tile is inside a civs&#8217;s border and there&#8217;s an open borders agreement.
· A Galley cannot enter a non-coastal tile, even if the tile is inside a civ&#8217;s border, when the civs are at war.

^Quoted from a vanilla game spoiler

This changed between vanilla civ4 and warlords btw.. in warlords they can enter such tiles when at war

I also have the impression that in BTS we can't enter ocean tiles controlled by other civ pre-Astro, even if at peace and with OB.

 

[AlanH]

This is a scary list! Well done for compiling it so far

 

[cabert]

I thought you needed maths for CS even on vanilla now

 

[psparky]

I thought it was worth mentioning the differences quoted below (haven't checked latest status after all those patches):

^Quoted from a vanilla game spoiler



I also have the impression that in BTS we can't enter ocean tiles controlled by other civ pre-Astro, even if at peace and with OB.

Thanks for the information.

The quoted text comes from GOTM14 which was played with version 1.61. I don't see any evidence that the situation was changed by patches to Vanilla or WL. I presume the difference applies to all non ocean-going units (Workboat, Galley and Ironclad for Van, add Trireme for WL). So I propose the following addition to the list for Vanilla:

• Workboat, Galley and Ironclad cannot enter an Ocean tile with enemy culture when at war

For BTS, I note that for Workboat (only) the 'pedia entry says "cannot enter ocean (until Astronomy)". I take this to mean that when Astronomy is discovered, Workboats become ocean-going, and follow the rules for that type of unit. Might this be what you were thinking of?

Would anyone be prepared to test how it all works in BTS using WB? (I guess post here before you start to avoid duplication of effort). I think the parameters are the four non ocean-going units mentioned above, an ocean tile in a foreign civ's culture borders where our relationship is OB, at war, or neither of these, and does Astro make any difference. As I said, I'm not really well placed to do this sort of thing, as I have only minimal WB experience, almost all my saves are HOF/BUFFY so can't be used with WB to give a base to work on, and I don't trust myself to have thought of all the issues or use WB correctly.

 

[psparky]

I thought you needed maths for CS even on vanilla now

Thanks for your comment.

I've checked the 'pedia, the in-game tech tree and other sources and they all agree that maths is not required for CS. It seems the change to require maths was a patch in WL, but was not done for Vanilla.

 

[Xcalibrator]

Thanks very much for this effort, psparky! I've long thought of doing the same but was too lazy. One other very subtle and generally unimportant thing that I suspect differs among the versions is what happens to your units when they are "teleported" because of expanded or suddenly closed AI borders. I recall that early in CivIV history, you could arrange things to teleport to unexplored islands by cleverly positioning a unit before an AI's border popped--that may have been changed in a Vanilla patch.

A more important difference is that in Vanilla (and Warlords??), captured workers can move that same turn--in BTS they have 0 movement.

 

[AlanH]

I think the simplest way to provide this as a resource is to link to this thread in each game announcement post. I propose to stick this thread and rename it - something like "Differences between BtS, Warlords and Vanilla".