(6-CP) Recon Unit Line: Swap Trailblazer and Scouting as Stem/Leaf Promotions

[ma_kuh]

Counter proposal to:

[Vote] - (6-42) Recon Unit Line Reworks

DoveCDog's proposal (6-42) Problem: Currently upgraded scouts move faster through forest than through plains. This is frustrating and immersion breaking. Current: Trailblazer 1 +10% CS Double movement through forest and jungle tiles Trailblazer 2 +10% CS Double movement through desert and...

forums.civfanatics.com

Proposal:

• Keep "Ignore Terrain Costs"
  • This is a keystone ability of recon, and what differentiates them from other unit lines.
• Scouting (along with Survivalism) becomes the second stem promotion line:
  • Scouting 1 (no prereq): +1 Sight, +10% CS outside of friendly territory.
  • Scouting 2 (req Scouting 1): +1 Movement.
  • Scouting 3 (req Scouting 2): +1 Sight, +10% CS outside of friendly territory.
• Add Trailblazer 1-3 as leaf promotions, and renamed to highlight they are the same tier, not sequential:
  • Trailblazer 1 Trailblazer (req Scouting 3 or Survivalism 3): Double movement in forests and jungles. +10% CS outside of friendly territory.
  • Trailblazer 2 Wayfarer (req Scouting 3 or Survivalism 3): Double movement in deserts and snow. +10% CS outside of friendly territory. Ignore ZOC.
  • Trailblazer 3 Voyager (req Scouting 3 or Survivalism 3): Allows embarkation. Allows crossing mountains. Able to use enemy roads. +10% CS outside of friendly territory.
  • Allows Survivalism scouts to also pivot into having a favored terrain, but not necessarily all of them.
• (Existing leaves:
  • Medic I: prereq changed from Trailblazer II to Scouting II.
  • Screening: prereq changed from Trailblazer II to Scouting II.
  • Frogman: prereq changed from Trailblazer II to Scouting II.)
• Add "Ignore ZOC" to Scout and all descendants
  • Locking this behind Trailblazer II added unnecessary disparity between the promotion lines for recon units.
  • Being able to rely on this trait for balancing purposes is a net positive.

Rationale:
The current system works by balancing more sight against faster movement. It only does so after the first promotion, and neglects the fact that forests and jungles have hills, negating the XP reduction significantly by "catching up" all those tile reveals trivially. It also implies that you should always be revealing forests/jungles first if able, so that when you get to desert and snow you'll have picked up TB 2 and can cover twice the ground. If your initial area is heavily desert and plains, then by the time you pick up TB 2, that exploration phase is over, and you are finally able to make use of x2 in trees, while your second promotion does basically nothing.

Besides this point, there is also the matter of recon units owing much of their survivability to ignoring ZOC. Gating this behind one promotion line and denying it from the other should not be the case. There are certainly alternate ways to achieve this (you could add it to Survivalism 2, for instance, so that it's redundant on each path), but I chose the way that keeps an element of danger in the recon game until Classical. The current system removes danger as a concern for recon after the first or second promotion. There may be a case for moving the +1 Movement to Scouting 1, but I think the first step of equalizing the unit speed in early game terrains is worth the change in scouting meta.

This proposal retains the x2 movement for specialized terrains to keep the unit fun to play. By limiting the terrains to more expensive promotion levels (level 5+), each choice becomes more meaningful.

Note:
"Embarkation" without Fishing becomes a T4 promotion, instead of T3. This changes how accessible coastal islands will be to recon units, and puts more of a premium on the Fishing tech.

"Ignore ZOC" likewise shifts from being gated by XP to being gated by tech/upgrade ruins, coming online with Scouts at Sailing. Pathfinders should be expected to either use Survivalism to tank barbarians or Scouting to see and avoid them, since TBII will no longer be available to slip between them, and the movement disparity cannot be relied on as readily.

Database Changes & Potential Promotion Icon Changes

 

[Stalker0]

you could just go one step further and give recon the amphibious promotion startign with scouts. they eventually get it on special forces and it would give recon a new niche that while infantry can replicate, recon would have right out of the gate.

 

[ma_kuh]

Some thematic sense in requiring Sailing before you can cross rivers freely, I suppose. And tying it to the Amphibious promotion saves description on the unit(s) themselves. Is there some desire to delay river crossing until Scouts?

I also thought about adding it to TB I instead of having it for free, but that nerfs Survivalism a fair amount.

For now I've amended to just give Amphibious for free to the unit line. If there's strong community support for actually changing when the Amphibious trait kicks in, I'll amend further.

 

[rkkn]

you could just go one step further and give recon the amphibious promotion startign with scouts.

making the initial pathfinder get caught on rivers is a pretty big change

 

[azum4roll]

the problem with recon unit movement is that flat terrain moves slower than rough terrain

I still can't see why that's a problem gameplay-wise (only thematic). It's the unique trait of recon units, and what differentiates them from mounted units.

This proposal still makes starting in hard terrain disadvantageous for exploration.

 

[pineappledan]

I have to vote no to any proposal that amounts to making scouts crappy mounted units.

The ignore terrain ability is the thing that makes scouts behave differently from other land units.

 

[adan_eslavo]

I have to vote no to any proposal that amounts to making scouts crappy mounted units.

The ignore terrain ability is the thing that makes scouts behave differently from other land units.

Is any of 6-65x proposals good enough?

 

[ma_kuh]

This proposal still makes starting in hard terrain disadvantageous for exploration.

This is already the case for desert starts though? But you don't also have line of sight issues, so in that way it at least has some level of compensation.

I'm torn, because on the one hand it seems like the times we've gotten this to a vote, people have chosen more normalized movement speeds regarding grasslands/plains vs. jungle/forest. On the other hand, this is a really small aspect of the game, and as much as I've voiced support for the normalized movement paradigm, it's just not something I think needs a lot of attention.


How about this for a compromise:

• Keep "Ignore Terrain Costs" -- this is a keystone ability of recon, and what differentiates them from other unit lines.
• Scouting becomes the second stem promotion line:
  • Scouting 1 (no prereq): +1 Sight, +10% CS outside of friendly territory
  • Scouting 2 (req Scouting 1): +1 Movement
  • Scouting 3 (req Scouting 2): +1 Sight, +10% CS outside of friendly territory
• Add Trailblazer 1-3 as leaf promotions:
  • Each has a prereq of either Scouting 3 or Survivalism 3
  • Allows Survivalism scouts to also benefit from the "right" focused terrain, but not necessarily all of them
  • [Optional: rename the promotions? I don't think it's necessary really.]
• Add "Ignore ZOC" to Scout and all descendants.

So at level 5 you get a horizon walker that can speed through their preferred terrain, but for the earlier part of the game, and for most post-exploration recon units, you'll be playing mostly with bonus vision and speed, but without the disconnect between forest highways and sluggish plains.

 

[pineappledan]

Pushing the double moves back later is acceptable to me. I think mainlining vision bonuses sounds like it's worth a try.

 

[ma_kuh]

Amended:

• Remove "Ignore Terrain Costs" Keep "Ignore Terrain Costs"
• Instead of using x2 movement and adding Hills to the list, ...
• Scouting becomes the second stem promotion line:
  • Scouting 1 (no prereq): +1 Sight, +10% CS outside of friendly territory
  • Scouting 2 (req Scouting 1): +1 Movement
  • Scouting 3 (req Scouting 2): +1 Sight, +10% CS outside of friendly territory
• Add Trailblazer 1-3 as leaf promotions:
  • Each has a prereq of either Scouting 3 or Survivalism 3
  • Allows Survivalism scouts to also benefit from the "right" focused terrain, but not necessarily all of them
  • [Optional: rename the promotions? I don't think it's necessary really.]
• Add "Ignore ZOC" to Scout and all descendants.

 

[AndreyK]

So, scouts going to have movement of 8 tiles?

 

[ma_kuh]

I had omitted "sight" from Scouting 3. It is now clarified to:

• Scouting 1 (no prereq): +1 Sight, +10% CS outside of friendly territory
• Scouting 2 (req Scouting 1): +1 Movement
• Scouting 3 (req Scouting 2): +1 Sight, +10% CS outside of friendly territory

If that's what you meant by "8 tiles".


But this isn't really much different than what they are currently. They start at move 2, for a long time you have move 4 except when they run out of terrain (levels 2-4), then they are 6 (level 6 or later), and late game they upgrade to 8.

With this proposal they have move 2, for a long time are move 3 (levels 3-4), and when you pick their specialized terrain they go to 6 (level 5, additional levels branch this out). Late game upgrade is move 4 generally, 8 in preferred terrain.

So you're trading a later +1 for an earlier x2, but only in one terrain, and the second x2 comes out exactly the same level.

 

[pineappledan]

The free embark is now locked too far back to be of any use. You will definitely have gotten sailing before you get a lvl 7 scout

 

[ma_kuh]

You wouldn't need to pick TB 3 last, they all have Scouting/Survivalism 3 as the prerequisite. But even then, it's later by a whole level.

But that does highlight that maybe new names are worth adding in after all.

 

[ma_kuh]

I didn't want to change any of the TB promotions. Again, keeping the changes small and clean.
Except maybe new names for clarity. The icons don't even need to change, they aren't exactly tiered (like Barrage, for example).

New name ideas:

• Trailblazer 1 → Trailblazer
• Trailblazer 2 → Sojourner
• Trailblazer 3 → Voyager

But if I was going to, I might go in this direction:

• Replace TB 1 with Woodsman.
• Drop Embarkation from TB 3 and represent the "water" affinity with Frogman (which is tech locked).
• Drop Snow from TB 2 and move it to TB 3 with Mountain walking, rename to "Mountaineer". Maybe needs a CS boost on par with Woodsman?
• TB 2 renamed, but to something better than "Desert Walker". Maybe needs a CS boost on par with Woodsman, possibly related to open terrain like Formation/Charge?
• Drop "Able to Use Enemy Roads/Railroads" from TB 3, move to "TB 4", package it with Free Pillage (moved from Survivalism 3), call it "Saboteur", use the icon from TB 1?

 

[rkkn]

I dislike all the other recon proposals, but this one looks solid

Ignore ZOC likewise is much delayed, and recon units will be expected to either use Survivalism to tank barbarians or Scouting to avoid them, as the freedom of movement granted by TBI and TBII will no longer exist (as early).

is this leftover from a previous version of the proposal?

Drop Embarkation from TB 3 and represent the "water" affinity with Frogman (which is tech locked).

so no ability to embark via promotions?

 

[ma_kuh]

is this leftover from a previous version of the proposal?

No, but "much delayed" depends on your perspective I guess. You would get it immediately with an Upgrade Ruin, and you would get it very late if you delay teching to Sailing for Scouts. But you don't get it via promos, so it becomes more related to tech/ruins than XP.

I updated the note to hopefully better clarify what I meant regarding the "Ignore ZOC" change. Also just to be 100% clear, this is given to Scouts and descendants, not Pathfinders.

so no ability to embark via promotions?

That would be the outcome, yes. But it's mostly a thought exercise, and not something I want to add to the proposal. After all, the problem described is fairly small, so the tweaks to support it should also be small.

 

[azum4roll]

I firmly believe that the current promotion line is perfect at balancing the exploration aspect of the starting recon unit.

Start
Featureless starts are slightly advantageous over Forest/Jungle starts since trees block sight.

By the time the unit gains Trailblazer I
It's out of the starting area and can freely choose where to explore next. Going into trees trades sight range for speed (and usually more XP). It's also less safe in the trees since barbarians have started spawning and may trap the recon unit.

By the time the unit gains Trailblazer II
Ideally you go explore the deserts and arctic areas now, but trees are also safer now with ignore ZoC. Which is needed because barbarians probably have started to swarm everywhere...

---

These recon rework proposals all act on the sole premise of "recon units should not move faster in difficult terrain than normal terrain", and never managed to explain why aside from thematic reasons.
To me, this is exactly what differentiates recon units from mounted units movement-wise.

I can roughly rebut each of the possible proposals made out of this premise:

• Remove Ignore Terrain Cost, maybe add some base moves to compensate: it's a huge nerf to Forest/Jungle starts regardless of stats given.
• Remove double movement or move it later (i.e. make recon units move at the same speed everywhere): you can't outrun barbarians (with their own double movement promotions) anymore when they're the most prevalent threat to recon units.
• Make recon units move faster in normal terrain than in difficult terrain: this just makes them a normal unit!

 

[DoveCDog]

These recon rework proposals all act on the sole premise of "recon units should not move faster in difficult terrain than normal terrain", and never managed to explain why aside from thematic reasons.

The themes are important. If this were Beyond Earth you could rationalize it, but in a historical game it stands out as a gamey gimmick.
The other reasons I made the proposal is I believe I get punished with my scouts for starting in the plains vs the forest or even the desert. Yes the bonus vision is nice, but I can't get as many ruins because of a mechanic that doesn't make sense. If I want to harass the enemy, I have to angle myself to travel through as many desert tiles as I can instead of the plain tiles for no logical reason.

• Remove Ignore Terrain Cost, maybe add some base moves to compensate: it's a huge nerf to Forest/Jungle starts regardless of stats given

It's not a big nerf to the start. With (6-51b) at level 1 they both move 2 forest tiles a turn. At level 2 currently they move 4, with proposal they will still move 2. But at level 3 currently they move 4, with proposal they will move 6! 3. Using the same logic you can argue that the current promotions are hugely unfair to desert starts as you have to wait until level 3 to get the same bonus that jungle starts get at level 2. What's great about this proposal is that there is no balancing issues between the starts, anyone can choose whatever movement bonus he likes, and it's huge.

• Make recon units move faster in normal terrain than in difficult terrain: this just makes them a normal unit!

With (6-51) they're not like normal units though. Normal units can't move 4+2 forest tiles in a single turn.

 

[azum4roll]

The themes are important. If this were Beyond Earth you could rationalize it, but in a historical game it stands out as a gamey gimmick.
The other reasons I made the proposal is I believe I get punished with my scouts for starting in the plains vs the forest or even the desert. Yes the bonus vision is nice, but I can't get as many ruins because of a mechanic that doesn't make sense. If I want to harass the enemy, I have to angle myself to travel through as many desert tiles as I can instead of the plain tiles for no logical reason.

I already explained enough about start balancing. Speed is exactly the same before the first promotion, when you should already have got out of the starting region.
Gameplay balance always trumps realism, or we'd be revealing Coffee tiles in Renaissance.

It's not a big nerf to the start. With (6-51b) at level 1 they both move 2 forest tiles a turn. At level 2 currently they move 4, with proposal they will still move 2. But at level 3 currently they move 4, with proposal they will move 6! 3. Using the same logic you can argue that the current promotions are hugely unfair to desert starts as you have to wait until level 3 to get the same bonus that jungle starts get at level 2. What's great about this proposal is that there is no balancing issues between the starts, anyone can choose whatever movement bonus he likes, and it's huge.

Deserts are not any different from Plains sight-wise. With (6-51b) at level they move 3 flat plains tiles a turn too, and with more sight they'll gain the first promotion way earlier.

With (6-51) they're not like normal units though. Normal units can't move 4+2 forest tiles in a single turn.

That falls into the category of "giving double movement on every tile", which is the same as making recon units move at the same speed everywhere. It's a pure buff on recon units in this case, which nobody asked for.