[Vote] (7-54) Remove CS Resting Influence Bonuses if War is Declared / City Captured

[Recursive]

Current Situation:

• Great Diplomats add 30 resting Influence to a City-State when conducting a Diplomatic Mission there.
• When you liberate a City-State for the first time, resting Influence is increased by 100.
• The bonuses remain if you declare war on the City-State.
• The bonuses remain if you capture a city from the City-State.

Proposal:

• Great Diplomats add 30 resting Influence to a City-State when conducting a Diplomatic Mission there.
• When you liberate a City-State for the first time, resting Influence is increased by 100.
• The bonuses are removed if you declare war on the City-State (if the City-State declares war on you, or if you declare war on its ally, that does not count).
• The bonuses are removed if you capture a city from the City-State.

Rationale:
It makes no sense to me for liberation or diplomacy bonuses to continue applying if you try to kill the City-State. Changing it to be this way also makes the deterrent to wanton CS aggression (negative resting Influence) as strong as it was before the resting Influence bonuses were added to the game, if not moreso. Given that City-States have limited ability to defend themselves, this seems fair to me.

It would also be consistent with major civilizations' diplomacy bonuses, many of which (including liberation bonuses) are wiped out if you declare war or conquer a city, though not if they declare war on you.


Note:
If (7-113) Landmarks in City-State Influences grant Resting Points (and Influence up to that Resting Point) passes, the Landmark bonus would not be removed, as this is a bonus based on something you've done for the CS that remains valid even after war is declared, unlike schmoozing and liberation.

My counterproposal, (7-113a) Landmarks Give Resting Influence Only While the City-State Owns Them, already stipulates how this would be handled.

 

[azum4roll]

The bonuses are removed if you capture a city from the City-State.

But what if you liberate the city? It didn't belong to the CS to begin with.

Changing it to be this way also makes the deterrent to wanton CS aggression (negative resting Influence)

Can you explain how this works in detail?

 

[Stalker0]

just as bitter rivals can become friends later on, I have no issue with enemy CS becoming your friends again and returning to full relationships. After all, you often get these through not just any diplomat, but a GREAT diplomat.

 

[azum4roll]

just as bitter rivals can become friends later on, I have no issue with enemy CS becoming your friends again and returning to full relationships. After all, you often get these through not just any diplomat, but a GREAT diplomat.

It only stops being friendly if you're willingly hostile against them.

 

[Stalker0]

It only stops being friendly if you're willingly hostile against them.

eh my point still stands. I can declare a war on an AI and eventually we can be buddies, since everything happens faster with CS I see no reason I can't get them back to a "good state" with me after a war.

 

[rkkn]

I see no reason I can't get them back to a "good state" with me after a war.

You can. You just can't do it for free anymore (no resting influence). It now takes work. You can still get influence the normal way and become allies.

 

[Anarcomu]

Since you can remove a sphere of influence out of a CS by capturing it, and you might want to do it whilst at peace with its ally, I'm not fond of this proposal. Would you make a specific case here ? That overcomplicate things in my opinion.

 

[Recursive]

Since you can remove a sphere of influence out of a CS by capturing it, and you might want to do it whilst at peace with its ally, I'm not fond of this proposal. Would you make a specific case here ? That overcomplicate things in my opinion.

Personally, I wouldn't be too thrilled if someone was trying to kill me because they didn't like my ally.

Self-Determination does exist but it provides additional benefits on its own. Maybe an exception for Spheres of Influence, but that seems complicated.

 

[Rekk]

eh my point still stands. I can declare a war on an AI and eventually we can be buddies, since everything happens faster with CS I see no reason I can't get them back to a "good state" with me after a war.

You can continue to build resting influence with them after you make peace.

 

[Recursive]

Can you explain how this works in detail?

VP Addition: Declaring war on a City-State applies the "aggressively attacked them" modifier which applies a temporary -20 penalty to resting Influence for 50 turns or until

On top of this VP Addition, the base mechanic from BNW works as follows: if the City-State becomes "wary" of the player, an additional permanent -20 penalty to resting Influence is applied. This replaces the "permanent war" mechanic from base Civ 5, which I honestly found cooler, but that's a proposal for another day.


How to decide if a City-State becomes wary (code is run when war is declared directly on a City-State):
1. If the player has declared war on at least 2 City-States before (including this declaration), and this City-State is the target, they become wary.

2. Other alive City-States who don't have a "kill City-State" quest against the target City-State and aren't allies with the civ declaring war check to see if they become wary:

Player has declared war on 4+ City-States (including this declaration):
- Observer CS is NEIGHBORS with target CS: 60% chance of becoming wary
- Observer CS is CLOSE to target CS: 50% chance of becoming wary
- Observer CS is FAR from target CS: 30% chance of becoming wary
- Observer CS is DISTANT from target CS: 20% chance of becoming wary

Player has declared war on 2+ City-States (including this declaration):
- Observer CS is NEIGHBORS with target CS: 25% chance of becoming wary
- Observer CS is CLOSE to target CS: 20% chance of becoming wary
- Observer CS is FAR from target CS: 15% chance of becoming wary
- Observer CS is DISTANT from target CS: 10% chance of becoming wary

Increase chance by 20% if observer CS is currently at war with the declaring major civ.

3. The check in step 2 is skipped if the major has already declared war on the same City-State within the past 50 turns.

Also I found two three bugs in the code by going through this, so thank you.

 

[Stalker0]

You can continue to build resting influence with them after you make peace.

making GDs the only GP that you lose all of the benefits of when you declare war, not a fan

 

[azum4roll]

Well, the game clearly doesn't want you to directly declare war on CS unless you want nothing to do with the CS diplomacy system.

 

[Recursive]

making GDs the only GP that you lose all of the benefits of when you declare war, not a fan

Embassies? Paper?

Maybe I could amend this to "only if you capture a city (excluding liberating a city from a Sphere of Influence)". Or someone could counterpropose that.

 

[Rekk]

making GDs the only GP that you lose all of the benefits of when you declare war, not a fan

The other GPs stop providing benefits when you lose the tile.

 

[Enginseer]

I can't think of a time when I would send a Great Diplomat and then decide to declare war on it, it seems very counterproductive.

 

[Recursive]

I sponsor this.

 

[Rekk]

Are all resting influence bonuses removed, or just the Great Diplomat and Liberation bonuses?

 

[Recursive]

Are all resting influence bonuses removed, or just the Great Diplomat and Liberation bonuses?

Those are the only resting Influence bonuses (unless you use modmods or the Landmark proposal passes, which I've excluded since it will stay in their lands).

But I'll just set it to 0, yeah.

 

[Stalker0]

Those are the only resting Influence bonuses (unless you use modmods or the Landmark proposal passes, which I've excluded since it will stay in their lands).

Pledge of Protection
Abode of Peace
Austria

there are a number of them.

 

[Recursive]

Pledge of Protection
Abode of Peace
Austria

there are a number of them.

Ah, those will still apply because they're conditional modifiers, they're not permanent adjustments to the Influence anchor.