(7-VT) New Faith related Tenets

[Karlos_BR]

Partially inspired by @Phosphoraptor's new tenets proposal thread, I decided to propose some of my own too. I also want to add tenets related to another under appreciated mechanic in the late-game: Faith.

Reasoning:
Faith becomes mostly a currency to buy great people in the industrial age and beyond, the mechanic fades into the background as players start focusing on ideologies and pursuing victory. Ideological tenets have bonuses for nearly all aspects of your civilization, but none that relate to earning faith or using it. So I came up with these 6 tenets to change that and make Faith more interesting and useful in the late game. I tried to keep each thematically appropriate to each ideology.

Freedom Tenets:

Gospel of Wealth:
TIER 1 TENET
All Shrines, Temples, Monasteries and Unique Religious buildings generate +5 gold.
15% of your faith purchases is converted into gold.

Havens of Tolerance:
TIER 3 TENET
Your cities benefit from the beliefs from the first and second most followed religions in it.
Your cities benefit from the pantheon beliefs of all religions with at least 1 follower in it.
Religious Pressure from all sources is increased by +50% in your cities.

Order Tenets:

Pious Socialism:
TIER 1 TENET
All Shrines, Temples, Monasteries and Unique Religious buildings generate +3 food and +2 production.
Cities gain +1 Population whenever you purchase a Great Person with faith in it.

State Atheism:
TIER 3 TENET
All Shrines, Temples, Monasteries and Unique Religious buildings in your cities are instantly destroyed. You receive +250 culture for each building destroyed. (this also applies to buildings in conquered cities after the tenet was activated)
All your accumulated faith is converted into culture at a rate of 200%.
All remaining sources of faith(Wonders, City States, Great Person Tiles, etc.) will now provide culture instead of faith.
Religious Pressure from all sources is decreased by -100% in your cities.
You can no longer use faith to buy anything.

Autocracy Tenets:

Esotericism:
TIER 1 TENET
You can add 2 new Pantheon beliefs to your Founded Religion.
(If you haven't founded a religion, you can add 4 new Pantheon beliefs to your original Pantheon and begin spreading it as if it were a religion. Can buy Inquisitors and Missionaries with faith)
Landmarks and Artifacts generate +10 faith.

State-Sponsored Religion:
TIER 3 TENET
Religious Pressure from all foreign religions is diminished by -50% in your cities.
Religious Pressure from your Religion/Pantheon increases by +50% in your cities.
Converting cities grants +25 Golden Age Points for each Population unit converted.

 

[Stalker0]

So I'll be honest when I first saw the title I was like "oh please no".

But....some of these look decent, I think there needs to be some culling here, but there might be some interesting ones here.

• Gospel of Wealth: If you want more gold, sure this looks pretty solid.
• Havens of Tolerance: This is probably the most complex of the ones to code I would imagine. Not sure how feasible it is to implement.
• Pious Socialism: The +1 pop per GP use is kind of cool (an interesting way to boost Tall in the late game and might actually make Order a better option for tall because of it), and these are solid food and prod yields. Each one by itself probably not....together....hmm maybe. Honestly this could be a replacement for resettlement, which I don't consider a great tenent right now.
• State Atheism: I get that you want the mechanics of this to reflect true atheism, but honestly a lot of this would be so much easier to accomplish by having 100% of faith spent also give culture or XYZ (and then add in the -100% religious pressure). The other problem is....by the time I have gotten tier 3 tenents, I don't generally find culture that important anymore. I mean I will get the tenents I need, I normally am shifting much harder to science at this point.
• Esotericism: An interesting idea, the main issue might be that there could be a dearth of pantheons left (and if a lot of people took this, there may not be any pantheons left). You might specific you can take any two pantheons you don't already have. I wouldn't add in the special notes about if you haven't founded....I mean this is an optional tenent, why in all the holy land would I take it if I didn't found a religion? If I take it in that case, I'm just being a fool.
• State Sponsored religion: Honestly this kind of pressure change is just too late in the game to be of value, and the golden age points also seem very late (I'm normally shifting into infinite GAs by this point).

 

[msw1]

I'd have to think more about these specific policies, but I do really like the idea of having ideological tenets that connect to faith. There are several civs whose kits closely tie to religion (Byzantium, India, Spain, etc) and it feels kinda disappointing and very bland that after the Industrial era or so religion just becomes a way to generate more great people, so what makes these civs unique basically vanishes and they just have to become a generic cultural/science/diplomatic/domination civ.

 

[Stalker0]

So I'll be honest when I first saw the title I was like "oh please no".

But....some of these look decent, I think there needs to be some culling here, but there might be some interesting ones here.

• Gospel of Wealth: If you want more gold, sure this looks pretty solid.
• Havens of Tolerance: This is probably the most complex of the ones to code I would imagine. Not sure how feasible it is to implement.
• Pious Socialism: The +1 pop per GP use is kind of cool (an interesting way to boost Tall in the late game and might actually make Order a better option for tall because of it), and these are solid food and prod yields. Each one by itself probably not....together....hmm maybe. Honestly this could be a replacement for resettlement, which I don't consider a great tenent right now.
• State Atheism: I get that you want the mechanics of this to reflect true atheism, but honestly a lot of this would be so much easier to accomplish by having 100% of faith spent also give culture or XYZ (and then add in the -100% religious pressure). The other problem is....by the time I have gotten tier 3 tenents, I don't generally find culture that important anymore. I mean I will get the tenents I need, I normally am shifting much harder to science at this point.
• Esotericism: An interesting idea, the main issue might be that there could be a dearth of pantheons left (and if a lot of people took this, there may not be any pantheons left). You might specific you can take any two pantheons you don't already have. I wouldn't add in the special notes about if you haven't founded....I mean this is an optional tenent, why in all the holy land would I take it if I didn't found a religion? If I take it in that case, I'm just being a fool.
• State Sponsored religion: Honestly this kind of pressure change is just too late in the game to be of value, and the golden age points also seem very late (I'm normally shifting into infinite GAs by this point).

at the end of the day I think these tenents are premature, but there is some good thinking here @Karlos_BR

Personally I would rather see these tenents got tossed around by the community, really thought through and polished up, and then brought back to the next congress. As they are written today, I'm just going to vote no, which is sad because there are I think some gems here but they are obfuscated by some lemons.

Its just too late in this congress I feel to give these the attention they deserve.

 

[Karlos_BR]

There are several civs whose kits closely tie to religion (Byzantium, India, Spain, etc) and it feels kinda disappointing and very bland that after the Industrial era or so religion just becomes a way to generate more great people, so what makes these civs unique basically vanishes and they just have to become a generic cultural/science/diplomatic/domination civ.

That's what I had in mind.

at the end of the day I think these tenents are premature, but there is some good thinking here @Karlos_BR

Personally I would rather see these tenents got tossed around by the community, really thought through and polished up, and then brought back to the next congress.

I'm glad you liked it. Those are just my first drafts, I'm just throwing ideas out so they could get polished by the community.

 

[Stalker0]

That's what I had in mind.

I'm glad you liked it. Those are just my first drafts, I'm just throwing ideas out so they could get polished by the community.

So that's not really the intention of proposals. We recommend that you instead post these in the main forum: https://forums.civfanatics.com/forums/community-patch-project.497/

or we even have a thread where people often workshop proposals: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/vox-populi-congress-proposal-workshop.683872/


But a proposal should be something that is "ready for prime time". Especially as the proposal cut-off happens tomorrow, so we will shortly be closing threads for edits!

 

[azum4roll]

Esotericism:
What happens when we run out of pantheons to pick from?
The non-founder part is likely too complicated to code.

State Atheism:
Doesn't this effectively obsolete a T1 tenet, some beliefs, and some Fealty benefits?

State-Sponsored Religion:
Sounds weak for a T3 tenet. And this combined with State Atheism means only Freedom civs are susceptible to foreign pressure.

 

[azum4roll]

Especially as the proposal cut-off happens tomorrow, so we will shortly be closing threads for edits!

Don't forget about the Counterproposal phase!!!!

 

[Stalker0]

Don't forget about the Counterproposal phase!!!!

I didn't forget, its what I'm talking about. but once that phase starts, proposals are locked down.

 

[Phosphoraptor]

Im glad to see I can help others with ideas! The proposal itself is quite rough but I like the concept of doing something with late game religion.

Some opinions:
- T3 tenets are generally for victory focused tenets, tenets dealing with faith would fit better in a lower tier
- Havens of Tolerance should have some reduction to religious unrest so mixing religions dont create so much unhappiness
- State Atheism removes a key component of all policy trees, the GP purchase ability at the end of each tree. This is a very severe downside since the GP purchase is key to many strategies. (artistry’s musicians are key to cultural victory) This tenet should give another mechanic to rapidly acquire these GPs again.
- For State-Sponsored Religion conversion is weak in the late game due to religions having lots of turns to accumulate pressure and resist conversion, as well as religious units costing more. I would also put bonuses/mechanics that bypass these restrictions like convert on conquest, Great prophets, or just get bonuses from citizens following your religion.

 

[azum4roll]

I didn't forget, its what I'm talking about. but once that phase starts, proposals are locked down.

But you aren't locking threads until after the sponsor phase. There's still time for discussion, and time for better counterproposals.

 

[Recursive]

I'm going to veto this proposal on the basis that the proposer has admitted the ideas are rough drafts with large balance changes that were intended for further community discussion. Also, this would require a lot of new code and I very severely doubt this will get a sponsor.

Discuss and polish the ideas and you can resubmit next session if you like.