A guide to Stability.

If you knew what and where the boundries were - there would be no point in having them. As most players would exploit this information, while the AI would still be penalised. Remember it effects both human and AI civs.

Yet AIs seem to know where my undefended workers and workboats are, and when I move units and there are weaknesses in my defense? Yes, exploitation is part of the game on both parts. There should at least be some sort of indicator so I know that if I take a certain city my civilization will be thrown into chaos. The stars don't do a good enough job of telling me that I should stop a certain action.

Harrier said:
Thats the point of the game many points in history do hang on a thread. And we now have a chance to try and change it.

Doesn't seem like it when I can't invade another civ without going unstable.

Harrier said:
Considering the whole design and programming team consists of ONE person - Rhye. I think he has done a brilliant job of trying to simulate history. Apparently, so does Firaxis - hence its' inclussion in BTS.

Truth. No argument there.

Harrier said:
This mod is a game based on the simulation of history. Hence the name "Rhye's and FALL of Civilization".

Choosing the right civs to begin with also helps.

This is my point, I don't get why my civilization would FALL when I'm the strongest, most cultured, etc. after conquering a weaker civ.
 
Since you keep insisting on telling me how to play my game, let me spell it out for you: nukes are banned, Germans are too powerful for anyone to go to war with, etc.

Heh, I'm not telling you how to play, I'm pointing out there are other options to solve your problem besides "I have to take land". Since you apparently don't care what other people think, I'll stop responding to your posts.
 
Heh, I'm not telling you how to play, I'm pointing out there are other options to solve your problem besides "I have to take land". Since you apparently don't care what other people think, I'll stop responding to your posts.

You're rehashing material to me that I already know and have tried. I wouldn't have posted my frustration if there were other options to solve my dilemma.
 
fyi, there is no "invisible line that if you cross it you're dead". You lose stability while you overexpand very gradually and with a certain margin of tolerance.
Consider the AI has no kind of stability bonus: how can they perform so good? In many cases a European civ different from Spain takes on all Mexico or Peru (which are not supposed to be their land), but still remains stable
 
Question: China, 4 cities, 1st in culture, 1st in gnp, within hystorical borders - no foreigners within these borders, high income, slavery + basic civics.

Stability: everything has 3 stars, except economy (???) which only has 2. Economy shaky since a while (don't know why). Changing civics with one turn of anarchy turned 3 of my 4 cities into independent cities.

1. Could someone tell me why have I lost my cities?
2.1. Why is my economy unstable? I have high income, a few turns ago I discovered calendar, so I doubled my income in recent turns, but on the other hand I had some fall in my production (the '-' in the production was lower than the '+' in my income). Is it possible that my economy is unstable due to these changes?
2.2. What should I do to avoid such situations?
2.3. Could it be that I will be confronted with the same problem when my cities will start to produce culture or science?
 
Someone mentioned that a highly specialist economy also hurts stability. Maybe you should look into that.
 
I just tried playing India on the 1.475 version. Had 2/3 objectives completed, had about 400 gold and 13-15 gpt, even runnning at 100% science. For some reason my economy was shaky, then I actually lost all my cities apart from Dehli! Have I missed something on how the stability on the economy works? The rest of my stability indicators were 3 stars, apart from civics (4 stars).
 
"That will be the subject of my next post"

Whitefire......Any chance soon.....?
 
I tried to avoid specialists, tried to balance the gold and hammer production growth (to avoid drops) while improving constantly and at the 100. turn my economy only had two stars. After that (realizing that my original strategy won't work) I had many many specialists. And my economy remained 2 stars for a 200 turns (I ended my game at that stage). It made no difference to me if using or avoiding high number of specialists.
 
This is posted on the first page - third post down.

It only covers the civics part of stability. A rewrite of the notes posted by Shadow Lord and Wolfigor but with no numbers - as these do change.

To use the guide.

If you are thinking of changing to a particular civic or are wondering why your stability, is bad look at the relevent civics.

The guide shows the good and bad aspects of running that civic.

Enjoy.
 
Great, I think you should all thank Harrier for this. Me too...I'll probably use this guide the day I start playing :crazyeye:

Anyway, I've added the page to the wiki! (and I changed/moved a few paragraphs too).
So please from now on update the wiki too, or mark your changes here so that I can export them.
 
Cities Category

These are checked for each city:

Citizens moods --
Foreign Culture -
Happiness ++
Buildings +/-- P
Religion - P

..................................

Citizens moods --

In the city screen, mouse over the unhappy faces to see the citizens moods:

Angry population. -
A city religion is the same as your opponents state religion during war. -
Hurry (whipping) Anger. -
Anger from lack of military units in the city. -
War weariness anger. -

These city penalties aren't applied directly, they are accumulated for each city. Each city is checked until a cap is reached -
A total value for all cities is also capped. --

Note: The above does not apply if you are at war and have occupied the city and you are running the Occupation civic.

.............................

Foreign Culture -

If there is foreign culture in the city:

Your culture is zero. -

You have culture and any foreign culture that exceeds about 15% of your culture -
You have culture and the civic nationhood, any foreign culture that exceeds about 5% of your culture -

Note: The check on their culture is relative to yours, NOT to the total.

Example: You have 16% culture in a city. CivA has 80% total culture and CivB has 4% total culture.

Both trigger a penalty because:

CivA has 500% of your culture.
CivB has 25% of your culture.

The percentage is lower for nationhood because of the nationalistic feelings that trigger unrest.

........................

Happiness ++

Average happiness from all cities +/-

If your approval rate (from the demographics page) is more than 70, you get a bonus, if less than 60 you get a penalty.

..............................

Buildings +/-- P

Building a courthouse. +
Building a jail. +
Building a jail while running the civic police state. +
Building a wonder. +
Building a great project (other than spaceship parts) +
Building another palace. ++

Corporation founded - (BtS only)

Moving the original palace. --

..........................

Religion -

If you are using theocracy or organized religion, each religion other than the state religion in a city results in a penalty. -

Founding a religion. - P

If a religion which isn't your state religion spreads to a city and you are at war with a civ whose state religion is that religion. - P

......................................

Economy Category

The economy rating, regardless of the type of economy you create, is heavily influenced by growth. The more GNP and production grows, the more stability improves. When you stop or shrink, it decreases.

Economics, Agriculture and Population ++/--
GNP changes +/- P
Great Depression --
Techs researched and Civics being used --
Golden Age ++

.....................................................................

Economics, Agriculture and Population ++/--

Amount of food per population. +/-
The more people you have relative to agriculture the worse the penalty.

Amount of gold (Economy) per population. +/-
The more people you have relative to gold the worse the penalty.

Running the Commonwealth civic, No penalty from low gold per population. Equivalent to +.

Imports/Exports are your trade with other nations:

High level of imports/exports. +/++
Low level imports/exports. -
No imports/exports. -

Running the Commonwealth civic, No penalty from low imports/exports. Equivalent to +.

Note. Economy is the GNP(gold) on the demographs page.

..............................................

Adjusted GNP changes +/- P

The GNP (Gross National Product) in Civ4 just deals with the commerce side of the game. In RFC commerce, industry and agriculture are taken into account. Each is given a weighting added together then the average value calculated. This is the GNP used for stability purposes. It is checked every 3 turns and capped.

if the GNP drops. -
Any GNP loss greater than 20 will get the same penalty.

if the GNP rises above a preset value. +
Any GNP gain greater than 35 will get the same bonus.

Note: To balance the gameplay, GNP has to rise above a preset value before gaining any stability bonuses. To avoid these permanent penalties - you need to keep your GNP growing.

.................................

Great Depression --

Running the civic free market can cause a Great Depression in certain situations.

A Great Depression is triggered when industrial output is far greater than your economy and your GNP is increasing. It also takes into account the population size. So the larger the population the larger the differance can be before a depression is triggered.

Example:
If a differance of 10 triggered a depression with a population of 1 million. You would need a difference of 20 for 2 million population, but only 5 differance for 1/2 million population. Remember you must be running the free market civic.

A Great Depression can not occur during a golden age.

Suffering a Great Depression. -- (for a number of turns)

You have open borders with a civ suffering from a great depression. --
(that turn only) The penalty is only applied for the first civ and only if you are not in a Great Depression.

After a number of turns you can break out of a great depression, if the industrial difference decreases and your GNP has not increased, or you have switched away from the free market civic.

.................................................................

Techs researched and Civics being used --

If you have researched the tech communism and switch from state property, you suffer a penalty for a number of turns. --

............................

Golden Age ++

Having a Golden Age. ++

Note: A Great Depression can not occur during a golden age.

BtS only. There is no anarchy when changing civics or religion in a golden age.



....................................

Expansion Category

You can expand your empire either peacefully, by building cities on unclaimed land or by force of arms. But becareful expand to quickly and you will pay the price.

The stability modifiers effecting expansion are:

Historic Civ Size --
Number of cities -/--
Cities built,occupied, traded,razed or lost +/- P
Current combat results -/+ or --/++ (all the battles this turn)

There is also a brand new civic column Expansion, that only affects stability. A few other civics effect expansion too. So you have a chance to plan the strengthening of your empire by choosing the appropriate civics.

............................

Historic Civ Size

There are checks based on historic expansion. So a civ that never became large in real life will get penalties if it expands to much. Also a civ that was historicaly large will get penalties if it does not expand enough.

It works by counting:

- how many other civ's cities are in your core area.
- how many plots you have outside of the area of historical maximum expansion (colonies included).

These values are used in some formulas to add a negative base modifier to expansion. It balances out the (usually positive) modifiers you get founding and conquering cities.

An important part of keeping stability is taking care not to over-expand. If you try to do a large fast land-grab conquest, or a settler spam, you'll find yourself with an empire larger than your government is capable of handling. You don't want to expand too fast, but you don't want other civs to grab all the good land either, so it's important to find a good balance.

Note: This does not stop civ's expanding outside their historic areas - you just have to plan your expansion carefully taking into account your stability. If you are Shakey or worse you are liable to lose some of those cities to sessesion or a civ re-spawning.

If you want a big empire choose a civ that did: Russia, America, Germany, France, Spain, England, China,...

............................

Number of cities

The number of cities you own effects your stability rating. The bigger your empire the more unstable it becomes. There is no penalty for the first 7 cities. After that, every additional city has a negative stability impact. This initially only cancels out the bonus for building cities and only becomes a real penalty when you get near 20 cities.

The thing to be careful about is that the stability penalty per city increases when certain limits are reached. These limits are approximately every 10 cities.

Examples of the stability effect that the number of cities have are:

7 cities = no impact.
10 cities = - small impact.
15 cities = - the total effect is equivalent to half a stability level drop.
20 cities = -- the total effect is equivalent to one stability level drop.
25 cities = -- the total effect is equivalent to two stability level drops.
30 cities = -- the total effect is equivalent to three stability level drops.
35 cities = -- the total effect is equivalent to four stability level drops.
40 cities = -- the total effect is equivalent to six stability level drops.

The above example just shows the total effect of a lot of cities. It is calculated on the actual number of cities you have.

There is also a research penalty for giga empires. This way there won’t be one leader with 30+ cities and far far ahead in technology.

Some Civics are linked to the number of cities.

Representation: Less than 3 cities (+ per city, capped) +
Representation: More than 3 cities (- per city, capped) -
Bureaucracy: 5 or less cities +
Bureaucracy: 6 or more cities (- per city, capped) -
Bureaucracy and Representation combined +
Police State: For every 5 cities + (capped at 50 cities) ++

Note: these civics do not effect the Expansion category.

................................................

Cities built,occupied, traded,razed or lost P

These are permanent modifiers:

For every city you build +
With Resettlement civic, for every city built 15 or more tiles from the Capitol. +
For every city acquired through trade, congress or conquest. +
With Occupation civic on capturing and not razing a city. +
On aquiring a Capitol city. +

For every city lost through a civ birth or reserrection. -

When you lose a city other than through civ birth or reserrection, you get two penalties/bonuses. One based on the number of cities and one on the way it was lost.

If less than 15 cities: (the fewer cities, the higher the penalty) -
With a smaller empire the loss of a city is more traumatic to the people.

If more than 15 cities you get a bonus (the more cities the higher the bonus) +/++
The bonus reflects the fact that larger empires are more difficult to control and losing cities is not so traumatic to the population. Some may not even know where that city was located. Also fewer cities over time make administration easier.

The above is then adjusted by:

For every city lost through trade, or conquest. -
If city is razed. -
Granting Independence - (BtS only)

Losing the capitol. --

Note: When you capture a city, you might find that much of the impact on your stability comes from having lots of unhappiness due to citizens anger, religion or foreign culture - except when running the Occupation civic.

........................................

Current combat results

Every victory gives a bonus and every loss twice that as a penalty. These are added together for each turn. The total which is capped, effects the Expansion category. To many losses and your expansion capability is lowered.

Total combat Victory/losses. ++/-- (half is added to next turn)

If the total is more 4 points +/-, it is halfed and carried over to the next turn. So losing a lot of units will effect stability for a number of turns. No more mass suicide attacks to take that hill city. Well not if you want to remain stable.

Note: The foreign category also suffers a small permanent penalty due to high combat losses.

.............................

Foreign Category

This covers everything regarding foreign affairs..... mainly diplomatic agreements, plus other less important factors.

Defensive pacts ++
Open borders +
Unstable neighbour when your stable -
Having a vassal -/+
Number of civ contacts +/-
high combat loss - P
Cities traded +/- P

.................................

Defensive pacts ++

Every defensive pact signed. ++

...........................

Open borders +

Every Open Border agreement. +

............................................................

Unstable neighbour when your stable -

If a neighboring civ's stability is unstable or collapsing and yours is stable or better. -

This penalty will only be applied once regardless of how many neighboring civs are unstable.

............................

Having a vassal -/+

For each vassal the civ has. +/-
The value depends on the Vassal's stability.

The civic viceroyalty gives a bonus for every vassal. +

..............................................

Number of civ contacts +/-

When you have gained a high number of contacts, with other civs you start to incur a penalty. -
This penalty increases as the number of contacts increase.

Note: This helps East Asian civs, who having less contacts, tend to develop less trade and get a lower Economy rating.

Remember having Embassies allows you to maintain contact. Otherwise over time you will lose contacts with other civs.

..................................

high combat loss - P

Suffering just above negative combat stability this turn. You suffer a small permanent penalty. -

This will happen even if you have lost fewer units than the enemy. Your troops losses are valued twice that of the enemy. So if you kill 8 enemy units, but lose 6 of your own. This is considered high combat loss.

Note: The Expansion category suffers a greater temporary penalty due to combat losses.

............................

Cities traded - P

If the city is traded away. -
Granting Independence - (BtS only)

Final Note.

Some penalties or bonuses may seem to be odd choices to the human player. The thing to remember is that some are there to help the AI civs in the game. So that you can play a more realistic and enjoyable game.
 
The above post no. 33 is the fourth and final part of my guide to stability.

It covers the four remaining categories shown in the F2 screen.

Remenber;

+/- indicates a value less than 10.
++/-- indicates a value greater than 10.
p is a permanent modifier.

It is all new content and follows on from the previous three posts at the start of this thread.

I will leave it to Rhye to update the Wiki. As this will give him the opportunity to correct any false assumptions and remove anything he may consider a spoiler. Although I have tried to avoid doing that.

Well enjoy reading it and I hope it does not confuse you to much. :) ;)


Harrier.
 
For me at least, the stability rating has become much more sensible to me with the latest version of the game, especially with civics; I'm now seeing 4 star civics regularly and I stay constant at 3 stars most of the game. Still don't know how to get to 5 stars for civics but I'll accept this as being a big improvement than before when I constantly was getting 1 and 2 stars.

Thanks for the advice here though, it is helpful and I will try to remember as much as I can as I continue to play this great mod.
 
How does one increase GNP? My economy has 1 star as India in the mid 18th Century. I have an economy that is in the green per turn. I am trading all my extra resources for whatever is available. I run Mercantilism with HR as I have not researched Representation or Democracy.

Based on the guide, increasing my GNP is necessary, but how do I do it?
 
The Economy rating is based on growth, not size or strength of the economy. This means you need to increase the amount of food/hammers/commerce generated every turn, over several stability checks. The easiest way is to run Free Market. Your commerce will shoot through the roof and increase your economy score. Also, settling a Specialist instead of bulbing it will likewise increase your economy rating.

Also, once you get Democracy you can switch to Emancipation and begin cottaging farms. This will cause a temporary decrease in your economy score, but will improve it over time. Since it takes 50+ turns for the cottages to fully mature, your economy will consistently grow at a slow burn for many years, keeping your Economy rating up.
 
Top Bottom