A slightly different religion topic

You were the one who posted a thread asking what people made of this man's character. If you don't like other people's opinions, then don't ask for them.

I did indeed make the thread and thank you for contributing your opinion and allowing me to talk and laugh about it in my own thread. Though I was laughing at warpus more.

Anyway, the rest of your post is predicated on your definition of irrational. Because I can't convince you that other people's beliefs aren't irrational by your definition I can't convince you that they are worth dying for so theres not much for me to say.
 
haha what a loser
 
lol fifty spam post lol

How's the whole pretending to be a girl gimmick goin'?
 
I did indeed make the thread and thank you for contributing your opinion and allowing me to talk and laugh about it in my own thread. Though I was laughing at warpus more.

So you made a thread in order to feel superior to people who disagree with you? Basically?

I'm sure you lead a rich, fulfilling existence. Oh, wait, how old are you? 19, based on your profile? Ah, that explains it. Never had sex either, I imagine?

Congratulations on making my ignore list. ;)

The rest of your post is predicated on your definition of irrational. Because I can't convince you that other people's beliefs are worth holding I can't convince you that they are worth dying for so theres not much for me to say to you.

You can't convince me because you haven't even tried. I would have welcomed an argument; if you didn't like my definition, then you could have argued against it. You don't want to try, I would imagine, because you believe that all secular people are as closed-minded as you are. Not the case. Bear that in mind in future. Although, based on the above, I suspect you basically don't want to be exposed to other people's opinions at all, fundamentally. (You certainly don't have any respect for them.) All you've done in this thread is bluster, waffle, and swagger.

But hey ho.
 
What is much more interesting to me is his fight against the Mexican Constitution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Mar%C3%ADa_Robles_Hurtado

He wrote a number of works to propogate the Catholic faith, and also cathechized others in ways which were contrary to the laws of the country at the time.
(with the nice mispelling of catechism and propagate :) )

At the time, the Mexican Constitution of 1917, which prohibited any public processions or other devotional practices, was the law. Hurtado proposed the creation of a huge cross to be placed in the geographic center of Mexico, which he said would be symbolic of how Mexico recognized Christ as its king, and organized a public ceremony for the laying of the cornerstone of the cross, in direct violation of the existing constitution.[1]

I guess what is at stake here is this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Constitution_of_1917

Article 24

"Every man is free to pursue the religious belief that best suits him, and to practice its ceremonies, devotions or cults, as long as they do not constitute a crime. Congress cannot dictate laws that establish or abolish any given religion. Ordinarily, all religious acts will be practiced in temples, and those that extraordinarily are practiced outside temples must adhere to law."

That's the only thing that I found in the Mexican constitution that could explain the above passages in the biography.

Now I have a few questions:

The Constitution was drafted and adopted by an elected Constitutional Congress. Why does Jose think he's above the elected Congress?

The Constitution, while allowing each citizen to practice his or her religion freely, specifically limited Religion to the private sphere. I can not tell exactly what was intended here, by why did Jose chose to be a martyr instead of a political fight?

Furthermore I'm a bit disturbed by this:
Hurtado proposed the creation of a huge cross to be placed in the geographic center of Mexico, which he said would be symbolic of how Mexico recognized Christ as its king, and organized a public ceremony for the laying of the cornerstone of the cross, in direct violation of the existing constitution.[1]

In anticipation of the laying of the cornerstone, signs were placed throughout Mexico proclaiming Christ the "King of Mexico", and declaring the nation’s devotion to the Sacred Heart

So what's better? A nation that respect all religions as long as they stay in the private sphere, or a priest who wants that nation to be Catholic only?
 
What is much more interesting to me is his fight against the Mexican Constitution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Mar%C3%ADa_Robles_Hurtado

(with the nice mispelling of catechism and propagate :) )



I guess what is at stake here is this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Constitution_of_1917



That's the only thing that I found in the Mexican constitution that could explain the above passages in the biography.

Now I have a few questions:

The Constitution was drafted and adopted by an elected Constitutional Congress. Why does Jose think he's above the elected Congress?

The Constitution, while allowing each citizen to practice his or her religion freely, specifically limited Religion to the private sphere. I can not tell exactly what was intended here, by why did Jose chose to be a martyr instead of a political fight?

Furthermore I'm a bit disturbed by this:


So what's better? A nation that respect all religions as long as they stay in the private sphere, or a priest who wants that nation to be Catholic only?

Have you applied this same rigorous analysis to Martin Luther King Jr.'s work? He was a reverend after all, who used Christian preaching, marching, and hymn singing, to defy the current laws of the nation.
 
How's the whole pretending to be a girl gimmick goin'?

Haven't done that in years! It was really just a one week thing.

And besides, what's the point in a serious reply to your thread? If people don't agree with your moronic conception of virtue by some religious nutball with a jesus complex you just reply condescendingly then continue your circle-jerk with the other ignoramuses. There's really not much to discuss.
 
Haven't done that in years! It was really just a one week thing.

And besides, what's the point in a serious reply to your thread? If people don't agree with your moronic conception of virtue by some religious nutball with a jesus complex you just reply condescendingly then continue your circle-jerk with the other ignoramuses. There's really not much to discuss.

:( But fifty some people still believe!

And you seem to have made a lot of judgments about my thread in very quick order. I'm not the only one who can reply you know? You might end up talking with someone whose condescending tone isn't so intimidating to you. :)

P.S. We are basically brothers in philosophy fyi, brothers shouldn't fight.
 
Have you applied this same rigorous analysis to Martin Luther King Jr.'s work? He was a reverend after all, who used Christian preaching, marching, and hymn singing, to defy the current laws of the nation.

No, because we're not discussing MLK here, but Jose :)

I would really like your opinion on my last question, though. Would you rather have a state that respect all religions as long as it's the private sphere, ans the 1917 Mexican constitution did, or a state that recognize Catholicism only, as Jose wanted?
 
No, because we're not discussing MLK here, but Jose :)

:lol: And MLK is entirely pertinent to the topic. If you don't want to answer the question that's understandable, it does put you in kind of a tight spot. ;)
 
:lol: And MLK is entirely pertinent to the topic. If you don't want to answer the question that's understandable, it does put you in kind of a tight spot. ;)

Dude, you did not answer my questions either.

I will not discuss MLK, because I think the issues, the context and the vision of Jose have nothing to do with MLK.
 
BTW Princeps, thanks for posting this thread, I wasnt aware of this man.
 
You are right I did ignore your questions, I apologize. Lets take a look.


Masquerogue said:
The Constitution was drafted and adopted by an elected Constitutional Congress. Why does Jose think he's above the elected Congress?

The Constitution, while allowing each citizen to practice his or her religion freely, specifically limited Religion to the private sphere. I can not tell exactly what was intended here, by why did Jose chose to be a martyr instead of a political fight?

I do not know if he thought he was above the elected congress. I do believe he felt there were laws to be followed that were higher than those of the congress though. Much like Martin Luther King and every rebel and reformer in history.

And as for why did he not choose a political fight? Perhaps because he was just a priest. It seems to me he intended to continue doing his job and if that brought his martyrdom then he was glad to receive it, in compliance with Christ's command to take up a cross and follow him and as a symbol to his countrymen and fellow Catholics.

BTW Princeps, thanks for posting this thread, I wasnt aware of this man.

NP, glad we could agree on something.
 
We agree on alot more than you think, we just havent run across each other in the right threads;)

This I also agree with. See, we're on a roll now.
 
You are right I did ignore your questions, I apologize. Lets take a look.




I do not know if he thought he was above the elected congress. I do believe he felt there were laws to be followed that were higher than those of the congress though. Much like Martin Luther King and every rebel and reformer in history.

And as for why did he not choose a political fight? Perhaps because he was just a priest. It seems to me he intended to continue doing his job and if that brought his martyrdom then he was glad to receive it, in compliance with Christ's command to take up a cross and follow him and as a symbol to his countrymen and fellow Catholics.

Thanks for the answers to my first two questions :)

Now I'd really like to get your opinion on my third one, which is my main buff with Jose:

Would you rather have a state that respect all religions as long as it's the private sphere, ans the 1917 Mexican constitution did, or a state that recognize Catholicism only, as Jose wanted?
 
Thanks for the answers to my first two questions :)

Now I'd really like to get your opinion on my third one, which is my main buff with Jose:

Would you rather have a state that respect all religions as long as it's the private sphere, ans the 1917 Mexican constitution did, or a state that recognize Catholicism only, as Jose wanted?

Well I didn't really notice where he wanted the state to only recognize Catholicism but even assuming he did, Mexico isn't America, they are a strong majority Catholic nation with powerful roots and traditions based around it. If you moved to Mexico and didn't expect that, then I would expect you be in for a surprise.

Anyway the government was more restrictive then you are saying as well.

"Article 5 outlawed monastic religious orders. Article 24 forbade public worship outside of church buildings, while Article 27 restricted religious organizations' rights to own property. Finally, Article 130 took away basic civil rights of members of the clergy: priests and religious leaders were prevented from wearing their habits, were denied the right to vote, and were not permitted to comment on public affairs in the press."

Those who resisted this were executed by the thousands. This was a violently secular government.

If I were Mexican I would rather live in a country where our traditions were allowed full expression and our clergy were not disabused of their right to free speech and suffrage. These are political technicalities to me though. The thrust of the story, to me, was what I posted: this man's apparent virtue, compassion, courage, and patience. Do you approve or disapprove of these?
 
Well I didn't really notice where he wanted the state to only recognize Catholicism but even assuming he did, Mexico isn't America, they are a strong majority Catholic nation with powerful roots and traditions based around it. If you moved to Mexico and didn't expect that, then I would expect you be in for a surprise.

There is a difference between a country with a majority of Catholics (and BTW, how come if there was a majority of Catholics, such an aggressively secular constitution was passed by the elected Congress?), and a country recognizing Christ as its King. Look at the US: Christians are a majority yet (technically) it's not a theocracy.


Anyway the government was more restrictive then you are saying as well.

"Article 5 outlawed monastic religious orders. Article 24 forbade public worship outside of church buildings, while Article 27 restricted religious organizations' rights to own property. Finally, Article 130 took away basic civil rights of members of the clergy: priests and religious leaders were prevented from wearing their habits, were denied the right to vote, and were not permitted to comment on public affairs in the press."

I was not saying much, I was trying to decipher what I read.

From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Constitution_of_1917#Article_5
All people are free to work in the profession of their choosing, as long as it does not attack the right of others.

How does that outlaws monastic religious orders?

Arcticle 24 I agree, that's what I said I understood as the main trigger for Jose's actions.

Article 130:
"States that church(es) and state are to remain separate. It provides for the obligatory state registration of all "churches and religious groupings" and places a series of restrictions on priests and ministers of all religions (ineligible to hold public office, to canvas on behalf of political parties or candidates, to inherit from persons other than close blood relatives, etc.)."

There is a difference between not being able to hold office and not being able to vote. I don't see where they can not wear their habits either - but that might be because it's not the original text.

Those who resisted this were executed by the thousands. This was a violently secular government.

It was indeed. The Catholics were not exactly fully passive either:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cristero_War

Both priest-commanders, Father Vega and Father Pedroza, were born soldiers. Father Vega was not a typical priest, and was reputed to drink heavily and routinely ignore his vow of chastity. Father Pedroza, by contrast, was rigidly moral and faithful to his priestly vows. However, the fact that the two took up arms at all is problematic from the point of view of Catholic sacramental theology.


The thrust of the story, to me, was what I posted: this man's apparent virtue, compassion, courage, and patience. Do you approve or disapprove of these?

Peaceful men always get my vote :) But I believe context and background are definitely crucial when trying to separate propaganda (on both sides, mind you) from facts on such accounts.

What I'm trying to do here, in order to clarify any misunderstanding, is not to cast doubt on this guy. It's to really understand what was going on at the time, what he was trying to achieve, where he was coming from, etc.

So while I do not agree with his goals or his wish to become a martyr, at least he didn't use violence to respond to violence.
 
"Hurtado proposed the creation of a huge cross to be placed in the geographic center of Mexico, which he said would be symbolic of how Mexico recognized Christ as its king"

This makes clear to me this guy wanted to impose his ideas on the entire people of Mexico, what makes him not sympathetic to me. (but he didn't deserved to get executed.)
 
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