A solution to Whether HRE deserves to be in the game

[Metal Alloy Man]

The Holy Roman Empire and Germany are two different civs and there's already two American civs by the way(Americans, Native Americans) though it's debatable.

 

[christian_a]

Even though the Vikings are in the game, how about the more modern Scandinavian civilizations (not "modern" like "today"!).
In the 16th and 17th centuries, Denmark was an important seafaring nation. As was Sweden, plus they were powerful in this pre-industrial era.

But consider the Chinese in Civ, thay are one civilization, atlough they span from the ancient Quin to the modern Mao. And the same goes for several other nations/civs.

Perhaps I'm not really making any point, maybe I'm just name dropping (or is that nation dropping?)

 

[Wolfshanze]

The Holy Roman Empire and Germany are two different civs and there's already two American civs by the way(Americans, Native Americans) though it's debatable.

The HRE was a series of treaties with German (and Austrian) city-states and Kingdoms... Germany is... well... Germany... meaning German city-states at the time. How else can you say that half the cities listed for the HRE are in-fact GERMAN CITIES and not say that the HRE isn't a bunch of Germans (and Austrians too). Why not take a guy living in a HRE German city and put him up next to a guy living in a German German city (redundant, huh?). Bet you can't tell the difference, because ethnically, culturally, technologically and language-wise, they're one in the same people.

America and Native America are the same Civ?

Culturally, ethnically, language, technologically, way-of-life... you couldn't ask for something more different then the two... stick a Native American next to an Anglo-American, and I'll bet you can tell the difference real quick! Native Americans and Euro-Americans are completely different peoples.

 

[Bongo-Bongo]

I really can't understand this anti-HRE stuff. At the end of the day IT'S JUST A GAME. The importance of it is comparable to what somebody 500 miles away from you, who you've never met, had for tea. Zilch.

 

[Wolfshanze]

I really can't understand this PRO-HRE stuff. At the end of the day IT'S JUST A GAME. If somebody doesn't like the HRE, why try and convince them otherwise? The importance of it is comparable to what somebody 500 miles away from you, who you've never met, had for tea. Zilch.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I really can't understand this PRO-HRE stuff. At the end of the day IT'S JUST A GAME. If somebody doesn't like the HRE, why try and convince them otherwise? The importance of it is comparable to what somebody 500 miles away from you, who you've never met, had for tea. Zilch.

I don't understand why anyone cares that they're in there . They can easily be modded out, or more preferably walked all over in-game. Once I have control of a civ, IMO no other civs need to exist, and I will see to it by my own hand...

What seals it for me is that he looks like the burger king. That's just awesome. They should make justinian look a little more like the hamburglar.

 

[Wolfshanze]

I don't understand why anyone cares that they're in there . They can easily be modded out, or more preferably walked all over in-game. Once I have control of a civ, IMO no other civs need to exist, and I will see to it by my own hand...

They were easily modded-out and good riddance... what's funny is the pro-HRE camp keeps saying "you shouldn't care that we like them, just get rid of them", but when we say we voice why we hate them so much and we just get rid of them, we hear nothing but "no, you shouldn't hate them for this and that reason, and don't get rid of them!".

For people that keep repeating we shouldn't care that they are in there, you guys sure care if we care if they are in there.

Frankly, I don't want two Germany's in my game. I already have Germany, why do I need two? Gone to the junk-heap they are.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

They were easily modded-out and good riddance... what's funny is the pro-HRE camp keeps saying "you shouldn't care that we like them, just get rid of them", but when we say we voice why we hate them so much and we just get rid of them, we hear nothing but "no, you shouldn't hate them for this and that reason, and don't get rid of them!".

For people that keep repeating we shouldn't care that they are in there, you guys sure care if we care if they are in there.

Frankly, I don't want two Germany's in my game. I already have Germany, why do I need two? Gone to the junk-heap they are.

I actually don't care though . I even understand your point. I just like the leader because he looks funny. I guess when it comes to gaming I prefer having some asinine stuff, even in a really solid game like civ IV.

I must say though, the Khmer leader really bothers me. Very annoying and demanding for a creature that certainly isn't human. I don't know what that thing is, but it cares about human religion a LOT.

Personally I wouldn't care if civ IV had like 200 civs, including some of the more obscure that have existed (provided it were balanced).

 

[Saim]

Just a correction to many: Austrians where seen as Germans during HRE times. In fact, they where seen as Germans up till at least WWII.

 

[Civ Diploma]

Why not think of Prussia as Germany? Frederick in Civ was from Prussia. Why not add the Etruscan civilization that was before Rome? (In truth, they threw out Rome's last king.)

 

[niels251]

Just a correction to many: Austrians where seen as Germans during HRE times. In fact, they where seen as Germans up till at least WWII.

you ever heard of the austria-hungary empire???


Wel Does HRE deserves in the game yes or no... Mmm I think not it would be the same as putting the EU in the game. Well maybe the same can be said of the USA. USA is actually a bundle of states like the EU the only diffrence is that USA is more of an country. Actually you could let out a lot of civs. England was formed by the Anglo, Saksons and Vikings and some others. If go this far almost every civ should be out. Actually you can split the vikings also so they should not ben in to.

If go back far enough the game should have one CIV the HUMANS. But than again that would not be as fun.

One final note than. HRE is less of an CIV than the other CIVS so it shouldn't be in there.

 

[mboettcher]

I don't think there's much wrong with the HRE. It's not Germany. It's proto-German. It lead into what is now Austria and Germany. To say its part of "Germany" just because Austria (and Lichtenstein, and central Switzerland) didn't join in with the Prussian-led German unification doesn't mean that the HRE is part of Germany. Only if Austria is part of Germany, then we can see the HRE as part of Germany.

Then we would have to make Byzantium part of Rome as well.

The main problem I see with the HRE is that Charlemagne was not a HRE leader. He was a Frankish leader. He led into what became East Francia and West Francia - which became France and the HRE. So to say he is more Holy Roman than French is silly. A better HRE leader would be Frederick Barbarossa.

Agreed. Otto, the real first HRE, would also be a good choice.

A leader that is overlooked and unfortunately difficult to add is Charles V. He was the most powerful man in the world in his time and few have wielded his level of power. He was BOTH king of SPAIN (and the New World) as well as HOLY ROMAN EMPEROR. Problem is which Civ does he belong to. I;d say he's more of a Spanish leader and happened to inherit the HRE. Most of his Money came from the New World but most of the industry, Skilled craftsmanship and availlable military personnel came from his HRE holdings. (The lack of a well developed Spanish craftsmanship/specialized labor economy and the fall of Spain are another story though...)

 

[mboettcher]

Not to be rude, but it seems like every topic I see you post in, you try to mention your mod in someway or another.

This game confuses me! I always thought the HRs were Frankish, and French. Now they are German?!?

The HRE, once it solidified a couple generations after CHarlemagne, was based mostly in the German, Austrian and Swiss territories. It from time to time held land in France, Poland, Eastern Europe and Italy. But like all the nations of its day was subject to constant border changes due to war. It, like the other nations, was especially suscpectable to changing hands and territories due to marriages and the great feudal family politics- which is how the Hapsburgs came to rule Spain and the HRE jointly for a time and is how the modern English dynasty is actually German originally.

 

[mboettcher]

Many people obviously do not understand their history here. First off the HRE did not have much less of a central political organization than most "countries" did in this period. Therefore it puts them on equal footing with any other civilization. STOP the arguement that they were like NATO. Nothing could be more wrong. Now I agree that the HRE is a bit German and the Germans are a little over represented. However, by removing them one ignores an entire era of western civilization that simply cannot be overlooked. The Landsknecht absolutely HAVE to be a UU in this game.

Another UU that has been overlooked is the English Longbowman. Next version has to find a way to add them in.

 

[Dvalin]

The Holy Roman Empire lasted ~1000 years, it's inclusion is completely justified...and as was mentioned, it basically represents Austro-Hungarian Empire in modern times anyway. HRE makes way more sense to be included than Mali, but Mali is there for balance/diversity. Some people want Third Reich/Soviet Union and those only lasted 12/73 years!

 

[Pir Lan Tota]

Wolfy, gotta disagree with you that HRE and Germany are the same thing. Even though they covered large parts of the same lands, but hey, the Roman Empire covered entire France, Spain, England (not the UK, england), does that mean we should get rid of those civs.

Now, I do understand your reasoning go further then land coverage and bear with me mate, as I will also give my political and cultural views on why HRE should be included.

HRE more or less pretended to take over from the Roman Empire, even though there was a gap of a couple of hundred years between the two.

Now, the HRE has been around from 962AD till 1806AD, so time wise, it defenitly has been around for a bit. Those are also the dates that always had an emperor.

The Empire's territorial extent varied over its history, but at its peak it encompassed the territories of present-day Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, the Czech Republic, Slovenia, Belgium, and the Netherlands as well as large parts of modern Poland, France and Italy. For much of its history the Empire consisted of hundreds of smaller kingdoms, principalities, duchies, counties, Free Imperial Cities, and other domains. Despite its name, for most of its existence the Holy Roman Empire did not include Rome within its borders.

Seeing how the HRE included areas of land which these days are far from Germany, means that landwise the HRE has a place in this game, more so then Germany, as Germany has only been around as a country for roughly 150 years. If you then include german states, they did not really start contributing to the World until Frederick the Great, who was born in 1712. Meaning the HRE was around for 800!! years before the future germans were starting to play a part.

Now the second reason why people say the HRE should not be included, is because it is a collection of individual states and kingdoms. And seeing how the EU is not included, the HRE shouldnt be either. Different goverment for, same principle, multiple nations working together (or against eachother) under the rule of 1 person/governing body.

But then I would like to call your attention to other nations that have the same setup. The USA (United STATES of America) is a collection of 50 States, under the leadership of a single gouverning body. In this case, representation, but again, it could have been dictatorship like with HRE. Germany, officially called a Bundesrepublic, has around 15 Bundes-countries, again working under 1 Federal Goverment. So having multiple seperate countries under one banner is still being done, even today.


Now for the main reason why the HRE should be included, is because they are the first attempts of europeans to get some form of co-operation going again. They more or less laid the foundations for the UN and EU and where the first serious attempt to reduce the number of wars that plagued the continent.

Admittingly, it did not work, but you cant fault them for trying. In the 1000 years that they have been around, while their lands where not war free, it was a lot less plagued by wars then preceeding years (the ones between the end of the Roman Empire and the founding of the HRE). The HRE did die in battle, but that was the result of external forces eating at it, from the West the French, from the North Fred the Great, The Dutch revolting against it, etc etc

The HRE worked well for several hundreds of years, the Habsburgs kept power for a long time, reduced wars and rebuild much of the infrastructure lost after the collapse of the Roman Empire. They spread the Renaissance culture, stopped the Ottomans from taking over large portions of Europe, after defeating them at the battle of Vienna.

All in All, they probebly contributed a lot to history, more then the younger nations around them or who preceeded them.

HRE needs to be in, thats my 2cts, more then Austria, as they only had a dying empire. Started in 1806 ended in 1918, thats even less of a history then most new world countries.

 

[Wolfshanze]

HRE needs to be in, thats my 2cts, more then Austria, as they only had a dying empire. Started in 1806 ended in 1918, thats even less of a history then most new world countries.

Ah... but Austria is still here (it didn't end in 1918, only the "Austro-Hungarian Empire" was broke-up in that year)... I look around a map of Europe and there's no HRE to be found... Austria has to have done something right... and it started when the Holy Roman Emperor renamed his nation Austria in 1806.

You keep saying the HRE is not Germany or Austria, but how do you explain the exact same Holy Roman emperor, living in the exact same Vienna, renaming his country to Austria and ruling Austria for many more years? A nation which still exists (with the same capital) today.

 

[Dvalin]

Ah... but Austria is still here (it didn't end in 1918, only the "Austro-Hungarian Empire" was broke-up in that year)... I look around a map of Europe and there's no HRE to be found... Austria has to have done something right... and it started when the Holy Roman Emperor renamed his nation Austria in 1806.

You keep saying the HRE is not Germany or Austria, but how do you explain the exact same Holy Roman emperor, living in the exact same Vienna, renaming his country to Austria and ruling Austria for many more years? A nation which still exists (with the same capital) today.

I think you're debunking your own argument against HRE. Pir Lan Tota's post was good but I disagree with him as well on that aspect. HRE serves to fill the position for Austria as HRE essentially became Austro-Hungary then Austria anyway. HRE was around much longer than Austria and since this game needs to cover the largest swaths of history, HRE needs to be there over a specific 'Austrian Empire'--though I would like to have all of them!

The problem with doing away with HRE is then who fills that role in historical scenarios? Germany by itself poses it's own set of problems trying to be HRE. What would be the solution, make Austrian and German empires separate civs? That would be interesting but then who is considered HRE in the middle ages, they would both be candidates and then you have two Germany's which you stated as being a serious problem.

Germans and German states have been diverse and many, with multiple empires and kingdoms rising and falling, they haven't been very unified until recently. Holy Roman Empire (HRE), Kingdom of Prussia (GER), German Confederation (GER), North German Confederation (GER), German Empire (GER), Austrian Empire (HRE), Austro-Hungarian Empire (HRE), Modern Austria (HRE) & Germany (GER)...HRE just fits historically. It more comes down to the naming, Holy Roman Empire or Austria? To me the history says HRE is the choice.

My fantasy feature for the game would be events that change flags/names, of course that wouldn't be so compatible with the open nature of most Civ IV games.

 

[Hoticehunter]

Why?

Wha'ts with all the HRE love?

There's some serious ignorance being tossed around here in defense of the HRE. Just because the HRE is not Holy, not Roman, not an Empire, not an ethnicity, not a nationality, not a Civ that hasn't already been covered (or should be covered) by Germany and Austria, and nothing more then a series of treaties, etc... doesn't mean they deserve the label of "CIVILIZATION" slapped on them and fully endorsed as the equal of all others.

Some people just throw up a defense for the falsely labeled "civ" (ahem) of the HRE, that they seem to know little about, defend it, then walk away without actually saying anything.

I feel like I'm repeating myself here!

You need to learn your history. Granted, most of what you say holds true for the later years of the HRE, who does Firaxis have as the leader for the HRE in the game? They have Charlemagne. The creator of the HRE, and thus, you have to include France, most of Italy, and a small part of what is now Spain into what you think of the HRE.

Charlemagne was a Frank, (not a German) who conquered Germany. Not a German who conquered France, thus the debate really shouldn't be "Oh boo hoo. Why is HRE in? Germany is more than enough for it." It should be "Oh boo hoo. Why is HRE in? France is more than enough for it." But when you take a step back and look at it like that, you should realize that any power that had France and Germany is neither French nor German and thus is deserving of a bit more respect than is allowed for on these boards.

Sure, when Charlemagne dies and splits his Empire into thirds giving his sons a third each, then you can start making arguments, but since they were smart enough to use Charlemagne, you can't.

Besides, it's in the game. No amount of whining will get it patched out.

 

[zenspiderz]

It is very strange this antipathy to HRE just because there is some overlap with Germany (in terms of language, culture, bloodlines, geography). By this logic maybe we shouldn't have celtia and france/england in the same game? Or rome and england/france/germany/spain/celtia. Ottoman and Byzantine? Sumer and Persia? China and Mongolia. Mongolia and Persia. Mongolia and ottoman. Mongolia and india. England and America. There are LOTS of overlapping civs. So what is the problem. Maybe we shouldn't have england and instead have mercia, Cymru, scotia, wessex, etc...

Really get a grip..

HRE is fun to play that is all that matters to me.