Aaaarmy Training, Sir!

[lymond]

Oh..didn't consider we started BW. However, BW and AH are both 12t at this point and the beakers into BW will make trading for it easy later. I'm fine either way though as the chops would be good. The AH path we'd probably only need one worker until alpha.

I suggest we whip that scout back around to the plains tile 3E before moving forward.

 

[lymond]

We could see how the grow times, although Iz probably imagined that mathematically in his head, but we might consider a size 4 settler.

 

[Walter_Wolf]

Got it.
Will post a plan in a couple hours.

 

[Izuul]

Hmm, we will grow to S2 in 2T on T17 due to corn finishing next turn. At S2 we probably want to work a 2F1H forest to speed the warrior up a bit. Warrior would be at 5/15 at that point so it would finish by T22. Size 3 and first gems online both on T21. I would say most likely we hit S3 at exactly 24F so at S3 we would start at 0/26 and it would take at least 5T to S4 which might be enough time to get a 2nd warrior, but i think we might also end up 1H short at 14/15 unless we slow growth another turn. So we could start a settler on T22 at S3 with 1 warrior or T26-27 at S4 with 2 warriors. With these tiles though each size only adds 1HPT towards a settler. 9 HPT at S3 and 10 HPT at S4.

Personally i think the only reason to wait to S4 would be to get the extra warrior to start spawn busting.

Improvements:

T16 - corn
T21 - first gem mine
T27 - 2nd gem mine

After that we would have a choice of chopping or building the grass hill mine. Or if we had TW we could road to 2nd city site. Could we really delay some of these techs long enough to get Alpha and trade for them? What kind of Alpha date are we talking about? Beakers are currently 10 per turn (you always get 1 free bpt that isn't displayed) and gems will bump us to 16 and then 22. We would get a 40% research bonus on AH since we have both pre-reqs for it so that would be pretty cheap.

 

[Fippy]

Alpha is imo harmful if researching or needing all expensive early techs (BW, AH, Wheel) first. I really see no point in that.

 

[lymond]

I just tested it and I think straight to Alpha is very very strong here. Granted it would be stronger had we not started BW, but that was the plan. The worker has plenty to do until Alpha. I had first settler out at 2600BC at size 4. Library and 2nd settler by 2000BC. Another way to look at it is that instead of chopping those forest we bulb maths fairly quick and chop HAs. We can chop one or two though for the 2nd worker and granary.

The key to this is the gems..it really makes the Alpha rush worth it.

 

[Izuul]

Estimating T55-T60ish Alpha if finishing BW and only about 5T faster if skipping BW. That seems like a long time to be missing something like TW. I would probably think the upper end of my estimate is more realistic because 2nd city would just be a gold drain without the trade routes.

 

[lymond]

I finished HBR turn 60ish


Alpha t47 or 48

 

[Fippy]

Just curious, what will you get from Alpha that helps with HAs?
I mean compared with researching HBR and Archery instead, while Archery should be cheap cos all AIs know it already.
And delaying the wheel always hurts with such starts that do not use rivers or sea.

 

[lymond]

here's a test save if anyone wants to mess around

 

[Solyaris]

Just curious, what will you get from Alpha that helps with HAs?
I mean compared with researching HBR and Archery instead, while Archery should be cheap cos all AIs know it already.
And delaying the wheel always hurts with such starts that do not use rivers or sea.

I usualy get BW, TW, pottery and AH before going for HBR. HBR is a good traid bait, but it requires that the AI tech alpha fairly early, which dosnt always happen.

 

[Fippy]

Well but you already started BW, you need AH and the wheel would make up for self-tech costs by connecting your cities and overall better early empire shape.
So that leaves pottery and archery from Alpha.

But instead of teching Alpha you could tech maths, and keep your GS (often a good idea with cheap libraries) for an academy in your nice Cap.

Researching Alpha and bulbing maths looks like wasting an early great person, it's like i tech something i do not really need and bulb what i really need instead.

 

[Walter_Wolf]

I believe it's best I play untill BW is researched, so we can make settling and next tech plans. We'll probably need The wheel anyway to (hopefully) connect copper even if we go for early alpha, which is a plan I like. Especially if we meet more AI's. If it's just these two on our continent, alpha gets less value imo. Also, the wheel lets us connect gems and the 2nd city.

The plan:

Tech BW. It says 12 turns now, but that will drop to 9 - 10 after we build the gems mine. A turnset worth of bakers .

The tile order for the worker turns: Finish corn farm -> grassland mine -> G hill mine (-> chop for the settler probably).

Work corn all the time, add rice tile after growth, switch to gems after it gets built. EDIT: Izuul micro looks better.
(Do you want me to make a detailed micro, or are we fine with the 'casual' approach? The question is do we want to speed up the warrior or growth. I will check Izuul's proposed micro he posted earlier.)

Scouting-wise it's probably best to go another 3 - 4 tiles in the S/SW direction, and swing W/NW and back after that. We won't have much of a scouting/fogbusting warrior army that soon I'm affraid. Hope to find Isabella while down south.

I would play in 24 hours or earlier if I get enough green lights.

Isabella didn't get Buddhism, so someone with mysticism is in the game (Monty? )

cheers

 

[ShiVvV]

I believe it's best I play untill BW is researched, so we can make settling and next tech plans. We'll probably need The wheel anyway to (hopefully) connect copper even if we go for early alpha, which is a plan I like. Especially if we meet more AI's. If it's just these two on our continent, alpha gets less value imo. Also, the wheel lets us connect gems and the 2nd city.

The plan:

Tech BW. It says 12 turns now, but that will drop to 9 - 10 after we build the gems mine. A turnset worth of bakers . BW completed on T25 in my test. And AH completed on T31.

The tile order for the worker turns: Finish corn farm -> grassland mine -> G hill mine (-> chop for the settler probably). Agree. Corn completes T16 and worker moves to mine grassland gems which will finish on T21. Then worker to hill gems which will complete on T27.

Work corn all the time, add rice tile after growth, switch to gems after it gets built. Initially I agreed about working rice, but we'll grow just as fast on a 2F/1H tile and will get the warrior out two turns faster. Can work grassGems, rice and corn at size 3 (and start another warrior)
(Do you want me to make a detailed micro, or are we fine with the 'casual' approach? The question is do we want to speed up the warrior or growth.Imo yes we do want to speed warrior. We'll grow just as fast w/o the rice tile while at S2 I will check Izuul's proposed micro he posted earlier.)

Scouting-wise it's probably best to go another 3 - 4 tiles in the S/SW direction, and swing W/NW and back after that. We won't have much of a scouting/fogbusting warrior army that soon I'm affraid. Hope to find Isabella while down south. Important to not our borders pop at start of T25 which should reveal the fogged coast tile in question. This frees scout from needing to explore to east at start of your turnset and can head S/SW as you say. We definitely need to find both AI's borders.

I would play in 24 hours or earlier if I get enough green lights.

Isabella didn't get Buddhism, so someone with mysticism is in the game (Monty? )

cheers

We just don't know much about settling plans as you say until BW is in. So I'm all in favor of you playing as soon as you'd like up to BW.

Tech path for my test was BW (T25), AH (T31), TW (T35-T36) depending on revolt to Slavery. After the worker completed the second gems I started chopping the forest 1W of the lake. I revolted at end of T31(@S5) and whipped settler on T33 into a worker with 22OF. Worker started farming the chopped forest tile. Unless map knowledge changes due to BW/AH I was envisioning settling on the tile 1W of the grassland gems for second city.

I am in favor of us researching TW following AH at this time--guess I could be persuaded regarding the alpha beeline following AH but...goes against my gut feeling.
Now excuse me while I go have a word with mapmaker about this non-river start, low seafood map!

 

[Izuul]

I don't know if really detailed plans are needed, especially this early, but i will say those are the places that you typically learn a lot playing these games. The devil is in the details

 

[ShiVvV]

I don't know if really detailed plans are needed, especially this early, but i will say those are the places that you typically learn a lot playing these games. The devil is in the details

I'm amazed you can basically do all this stuff in your head, Izuul. I'd be lost w/o the test save. Ducks back into neanderthal cave.

Just to make it official (rather late):
1. Solyaris- (completed)
2. Walter_Wolf (UP)
3. Lymond (on deck)
4. yena
5. ShiVvV
6. Packers5280
7. pigswill
8. Quip
9. Deonnim
10. shpeka

 

[Walter_Wolf]

I'm plan on using this tile micro, just to be clear.

Hmm, we will grow to S2 in 2T on T17 due to corn finishing next turn. At S2 we probably want to work a 2F1H forest to speed the warrior up a bit. Warrior would be at 5/15 at that point so it would finish by T22. Size 3 and first gems online both on T21. I would say most likely we hit S3 at exactly 24F so at S3 we would start at 0/26 and it would take at least 5T to S4 which might be enough time to get a 2nd warrior, but i think we might also end up 1H short at 14/15 unless we slow growth another turn. So we could start a settler on T22 at S3 with 1 warrior or T26-27 at S4 with 2 warriors. With these tiles though each size only adds 1HPT towards a settler. 9 HPT at S3 and 10 HPT at S4.

 

[Walter_Wolf]

btw, send warrior north to try to find a Bismark's worker or you prefer making sure the settler arrives to it's spot safely later?

 

[pigswill]

Let's see if we have copper available. We could even try axe rush!!

 

[ShiVvV]

btw, send warrior north to try to find a Bismark's worker or you prefer making sure the settler arrives to it's spot safely later?

I see your point now WW--starting the settler at S3. I'm in favor of warrior going north following his nose to Bismark. Seems like we could always get another warrior quickly if needed. Escort needs be a lot more clear after BW is in.