abbamouse Realistic Religions mod including Zoroastrianism

[abbamouse]

Well, I went ahead and coded a few changes to the tech tree. I'm still open to discussion, and changing prerequisites and techs really isn't that hard once you've planned everything out. So this is a "first cut" of a revised tech tree; expect revisions over time.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

Well, I went ahead and coded a few changes to the tech tree. I'm still open to discussion, and changing prerequisites and techs really isn't that hard once you've planned everything out. So this is a "first cut" of a revised tech tree; expect revisions over time.

so now monotheism only founds judaism and not a single other benefit? that's cruel. let it have at least another one good effect, otherwise it will be the only tech in the game that's only useful for founding a religion...

aside from that, I like the changes. they make sense.

 

[abbamouse]

I didn't notice that, Gekko. I'll see what I can do to change it.

 

[Fachy]

I agree with having a seperate tech for religion, like a couple of mods did before. Founding a religion (at least a late one, according to my mod ) is very useful

 

[Houman]

Zoroastrianism: While elements of this faith seem to be quite old -- perhaps as early as 1200 BCE -- the usual dates given for Zoroaster's/Zarathushtra's life would have him teaching around 600 BCE. Somewhere betwen 1200 BCE and 600 BCE would be a reasonable origin date for this faith.

@abbamouse,

The only reason why the tradition of Zoroastrians nowadays uses the date of 600 BC is that the script as such was used much later in the ancient Persia. The reason for that, as explained the books below, is that the priests thought the written form of the religion can be misinterpreted as soon as someone tried to write it down. For this reason the priests were trained from age of 5 to memorize the whole concept. The written form (called Avesta) came much later into place.

The date 600 BC came only into existence because at the time of the third Persian dynasty no one really knew when Zarathustra had lived. No one knew of a great event for the beginning of the calendar than the birth of Cyrus the Great who freed the Jews in Babylon.

It is impossible to think that Zarathustra had lived 600 BC while the Persian entered 50 years later Babylon and freed the Jews. Zoroastrism could not have been spread in only 50 years all over the empire. We know that this is impossible since the early beginning of Zarathustras message is being told in Avesta as a very slow progress of more than 10 years until it could take over only one state.

The Gathas, which contains 17 hymns of Zarathustra, is part of the Avesta the holy Book of Zoroastrians. Linguists in the beginning of the 20th century have proven that the Gatha is written in such an archaic dialect that is in total contrast to all other parts of Avesta. Through intense research they have proven that Gathas that is written in the "Old Avestan" amazingly close to the Indian Vedic. Only because of the early isolation of Zarathustra’s tribe, the language has evolved differently or slower than Vedic India. Prof. Mary Boyce shows even one sentence in both languages than only very few letters differs from each other.

This theory is now accepted very widely that Gatha is the only part of Avesta that is deriving directly from Zarathustra himself. The Age of this language is 3700 years ago (1700 BC). [Not 1200 BC]

Sources:
Prof. Marry Boyce (Zoroastrians)
Samuel Nigosian (The Zoroastrian Faith)

P.S. Your idea about the changes is excellent!

 

[abbamouse]

Houman -- Thanks for the info. I'm always a little leery of linguistic dating, particularly when it comes to ancient languages. The techniques used for estimating linguistic drift over time are pretty crude. Moreover, the dating of languages in central and south Asia is extremely politicised. Nevertheless, I should alter the date range to "1500 BCE to 1200 BCE" since that seems to be the range of estimates for the origin of the faith itself. It doesn't really matter to the game, though, because Zoroastrianism is already one of the first faiths to appear in my mod (roughly the same time as Judaism, and only slightly after Hinduism). The tech tree is a pretty crude instrument for mimicing history, so a difference of half a millenium is barely noticeable

 

[Houman]

Sorry Abbamouse, I did a mistake in the numbers (it is 1500 BC, and not 1700 BC anymore). I Had the wrong year in my head. I typed the complete foreword as proof. You are right though, it won't change the mod much, since you have placed it already as the oldest category. I think it can be very informative to set the records straight in the game's description. Since it is a good way to learn for kids and for adults.

Regards
Houman

Foreword to this Edition
"Zoroastrians: Their Religious Believes and Practices"
Prof. Mary Boyce


There have been notable advances in the study of Zoroastrianism since the book was published in 1979, and although a number of corrections were made in the text in the second edition reprint of 1983, it now seems desireable to indicate cetrain large developments which needs to be borne in mind during a reading of the early chapters.

The approximate date first proposed for Zoroaster, of 1700 BC, has already been modified, partly because the earliest compilation of Rigvedic hyms is now assigned to about 1500 BC, and the 'Old Avestan' language spoken by the prophet is very close to Vedic. It may be, however, that it evolved more slowly, because his people apear to have been more settled and conservative than their Indo-Aryan cousins; and calculations based on the language and content of the 'Old Avestan' and 'Young Avestan' texts suggest a date of about 1200 BC for former, and not later than 800 BC for the latter. Archelogists, however, have been led by their findings to assign the main movements by Iranians into the land that came to be called after them, 'Iran', to about 1000 BC, so that attributing the date of 1200 BC to Zoroaster still means that he lived before these movements took place, somewhere, therefore, on the Inner Asian steppes. Sites have been excavated in northern Kazakhstan which may, it is thought, have belonged to ancient Iranians of about this time. Thei inhabitants were sedentary pastoralist with a mainly Stone Age culture, but making some use of bronze.

 

[Lordboogar]

I'm loving simply the discussion of this topic- I will play the mod. I had been thinking of doing something with the idea of giving the different religions some unique character. I realize that it is a sensitive issue, but then to have religions in a game without paying holmage to the uniqueness of each makes no sense.

I was split between giving access to one of any of the religions up front, or allowing the normal progression (given that I am not much of a code warrior, the easiest mod would simply be to follow the convention of research, but add flavor at each level).

Nonetheless, it would enhance game value if while your state religion was perhaps Buddhism each of your cities with it recieved an additional happiness, and had in increase in Great Person growth rate, Where as a Taoist civilization may tend to be more healthy, and better organized (as if the 'financial' leadership were in effect).

I think trying to give more specific effects too each particular faith's buildings is certainly an interesting avenue, but it sort of over emphasizes diversity and would lead to some very hot debate over what's in or out as a bonus item or disadvantage.

I also like the notion of removing religions, but at present the stock game's treatment of these really doesn't promote any need to do so... by confering a global bonus, each religion would be similar to a civic and by switching between the various state religions, or even a 'no state religion' option you would in effect be 'killing off' a religious influence.

 

[Randle]

I like the idea
Although I guess I think this game doesn't really take into account how most people are secular

Is 16% most?

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

 

[gianluca790]

Unless you mean France, but I'm sure they were Catholic then, too...

Heugenots: French Protestants

 

[Lachlan]

What about "Greco-Roman Polytheism" as the 8th religion ?

Should be useful for Greece and Rome

 

[eoo2]

I haven't sifted through oll the responses yet to see if anyone responded about "Babbism", but I'm going to pitch my two cents into this one-

The "Bab'i" Faith (as this is properly known) lasted less that two decades of the nineteenth century under this name. After the martyrdom of the Bab'i leader (The Bab), the Faith underwent various changes which resulted in the emergence of the Baha'i Faith (which you have more likely heard of).

The fellow known as "The Bab" (meaning "The Gate" in Farsi) could be viewed as generally analagous to the preChristian John the Baptist. The Baha'i leader who was promised by The Bab was known as Baha'u'llah (meaning "The Glory of God") and is analagous to Christ himself. Baha'u'llah taught that human beings had sullied the good name of Islam and encouraged a radical reform which could reconcile the world's religions. This was the first relgious worldview, concieved from the beginning as addressing the modern global situation- the Baha'i Faith emerged in 1854, the same year that Samual Morse sent the first electronic message by telegraph. Baha'u'llah taught unity of religion, races, and God- plus ethics of compassion, pacifism, gender equality, removal of extremes of wealth and poverty, international collective security, and global representative democracy.

I'm a Baha'i, and certainly in favor of seeing this religion included in future releases of this mod. I'm also willing to contribute any information which might facilitate that aspect of modding (eoo2@duke.edu).

However, I also recognize that Civ4's creators balanced the game for a limited number of religions and Baha'i probably just doesn't doesn't rank high enough in terms of player interest or sheer numbers of believers (there are only between 5 and 6 million Baha'i's worldwide).

This mod is awesome! The attention to reforming relgious history timelines and including Zoroastrianism shows great sensitivity toward modeling a complex topic. Congratulations on developing an excellent project!

 

[Edmund Fogg]

Abbamouse,
I have tried the mod, playing once through the founding of Christianity, and the second time through the founding of Islam.

Both games standard map, 13 civs, normal speed, 4 continents, prince level.

First game I was Hapshetsut of the Egyptians. Usually she can found a religion. But on this game I failed. Lost out on all the early religions then went for Christianity, but lost out on that too. On my continent there were no religions, they seem to have been discovered by a different civ on a different continent

Second game I was Saladin. I missed out by a turn on Hinduism, but landed Judaism then Zoroastrianism very quickly--indeed I had only one city at the time. I also landedChristianity and then Islam. Judiasm spread very slowly. My neighbor Mao adopted it when it spread to his capital but he converted to the Big Z after a few visits from my Magi. Indeed, though I worked on converting Mao, even before I succeeded Zoroastrianism had spread like wildfire over the rest of the continent and the neighboring continent. Indeed by the time I paused last night my continent and the continent next to me were all Zoroastrian civilizations.

My two worries about the great mod:

It is too easy for the Arabs to monopolize all the early religions. It is too likely that the spiritual civs that start out with the prerequisites will land a monopoly or near monopoly on the religions. You should think about changing the tech tree so that it is harder to get all the early religions. Can Zoroastrianism for example be pegged to a completely different tech? Like Bronze working or some such?

Also the prohibition on Jewish rabbis is just too tough. I like how you have changed the cost and allowed number of Christian missionaries. I think you should just make Jewish rabbis really expensive. It handicaps the religion far too much to have no way to control its spread.

Great mod. Keep up the good work.

edit: clarity, typo

 

[Lachlan]

How about Greco-Roman Polytheism ???

Or Animism ???

 

[abbamouse]

I'm shying away from extra religions until I can find a way to implement some sort of checkoff system (or perhaps limit # of religions by # of players). I do think some sort of Mediterranean polytheism would be a great addition, but there are game balance issues as well -- to be realistic, it needs to emerge early in the game and there are plenty of early religions already. I bet a REALLY modern religion wouldn't unbalance things, although players might not see much point in it.

 

[GenMarshall]

I would like to point out that the Zoroastrianism icon is a bit buggy. The Icon I am talking about is the one you find on the top of the city name bar. The background of the Icon is not transparent.

I have posted a screenshot of the bug.

 

[Houman]

I would like to point out that the Zoroastrianism icon is a bit buggy. The Icon I am talking about is the one you find on the top of the city name bar. The background of the Icon is not transparent.

I have posted a screenshot of the bug.

For Gods sake, CivGeneral, are you using the Iranian Post-Revolution Flag in your game? Do you know how many people they have killed, suppressed and assassinated sine 1979? Please take the Iranian flag without this swastika in the middle. That makes me so sad...

Of course it is your game and your decision, but because of this fundamentalist government 6 Mio people have fled the country since 1979. They suppress the free speech and free thoughts. Your screenshot is so funny, having this Islamic fundamentalism swastika within your flag and on the other hand having the Zoroastrianism as religion in the city.

This flag is from Times of Cyrus the Great:


Or at least take the modern Iranian Flag without that Islamic swastika in the middle.

I know it is not my business, sorry about that....

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

You're right, it's kinda not your business. I am totally against nazism and fascism, but maybe one day I will want to add Hitler to my game and play as him and kill everyone. so what? It's a game for god's sake...

 

[wooga]

and on that note, I think "Nazism" would be an interesting religion (off of Fascism tech) to add for the modern age. But new religions should only be added if there is a way to disable individual religions, so that some sort of practical players/religions ratio can be maintained.

Keep up the good work abbamouse!

 

[abbamouse]

The Zoroastrianism icon is not a bug -- I had a transparent background earlier and dropped it because it was really hard to see against the background. The colors of the bird (farahvahar) blend in with the terrain. I may play around with it a bit more to make it look nicer, however.