Acken's Minimalistic Balance for singleplayer (and AI improvements)

[DeAnno]

I also like the vision portion of the America UA myself, it has a lot of interesting applications to both earlygame in the hut search and later in war. If you think they're weak maybe buff it more with an extra Scouting I promotion as well for +2 sight?

 

[Lord Yanaek]

I'll be working on 2 additional civs for the next patch.
Ottomans and America

Ottomans need a change. Not sure about the proposed change thought.
America, as was said by others, is in no way a weak civ for me. It's not an OP civ, but not weak at all. Now, the tile purchase part of MD will eventually stop being useful at some point (as the price will get high anyway) but in the unmodded game there are only 2 civs i'm comfortable playing Liberty or Honor and not taking the tradition opener : Shoshone and America, with other civs i tend to "waste" a SP so my borders can grab the useful tiles fast enough.
A unique settler, or a faster settler, or a settler that ignores movement penalties from rough terrain would probably fit them though and wouldn't make them crazy OP (but a fast moving settler would make AI America even more of a pain as it tends to forward settle you often). If you opt for a settler promotion it can even be part of MD and not replace any of their UU (thought i'm not sure the Bomber is really that great, at least it's not in the base game but wars play different in the mod)

I feel that America is lower tier but quite decent at the moment. i would rather see nerf to the strongest civs to bring them more in line with America than buffing America.

No, please no. This is not an MP balance mod. There is no need to nerf strong civs, there is a need to fix "boring "civs. Civs can be boring because their unique is so weak that it doesn't feel like they have a unique at all, or because their unique really isn't interesting, so weak civs need some work, but not because they are weak, because they are not fun.
Also, if you really wanted to balance civs, you need not consider only the UA, but all their uniques (units, buildings, improvements). Mongols have a really crappy UA (and one i really feel needs a change), but they are still a very strong civ because of their units.

I also like the vision portion of the America UA myself, it has a lot of interesting applications to both earlygame in the hut search and later in war. If you think they're weak maybe buff it more with an extra Scouting I promotion as well for +2 sight?

+2 is probably too much. The only unit in the game with +2 (the Spanish conquistador) looses it on upgrade even thought it's a promotion so he should keep it. Also any horse line unit can already have +2 as MD is a separate promotion and doesn't just give sentry for free. I don't think that part of the UA needs any change.

 

[rkade8583]

I would say give settlers the ability to defend (or spawn with a defender) if you're going for the "go west, young man" feel.

 

[chumchu]

+1 move on settlers seems like an elegant change that still gives a distinct advantage in early game.

Re: the ottomans. The extra happiness from multiple religions is a very decent warfare ability as it is best when you conquer civs with different religions than your own and happiness is an important break on conquests.

You could either buff the Sipahi by making them cheaper or giving them a flanking bonus [both fit historically] or replace them with a unique privateer to cover their lost UA:
Corsair: Availiable at astronomy, privateer strength gold from kills.

As I've said before, a special privateer would allow them to make something out of their coastal start bias and make them more of a hybrid water/land civ which would fit their history better. Lancers are decent in this mod and cheaper flanking sipahis would be smoething but it is nowhere near the power of winged hussars.

Regarding Nerfs. I want nerfs to the boring parts of the three strongest civs:

Poland: Solidarity is now "Social policy cost -20%", alternatively "half the increase in social policy cost for new cities"
Brutal nerf, but they were insane before. And they now have a great special unit. With the increased policy acquisation in the mod poland can do stuff like liberty, tradition, commerce, ideology rationalism. Their free policies gets them to point were it is boring as there are no hard trade-offs, you can get both liberty and tradition, ideology and rationalism.

Korea: Korea's unique ability is now only +2 science for specialists and great person tile improvements. [The first bonus is very strong but unique and fun. The extra bonus for building thing in the capital is unnecessary and forces you into the already dominant playstyle with a monster capital that both gives you most of your science and builds the wonders.]

Babylon: Get their great scientist at mathematics instead of writing. [comes significantly later, at the right historical tech. Some interesting trade-offs as to how fast the beeline should be, not just go directly to writing every game.]

 

[King_Course]

Free settler for USA when they discover horseback riding.

Been greatly enjoying your mod. Discovered it recently, albeit I have +1000 hours on this accursed game. I am down to Emperor from immortal, to enjoy myself, but am still having a rough time with runaway Civs. Won't go back though, your changes are good and mostly the Civs are playing to win, which made the game interesting again.

Regarding the runaways. In unmodded you play catch up, and then you catchup. In your mod the Runaways gain momentum and I can't catch them even with what I feel is a pretty strong bunch of cities I've aquired.

Again; great mod right here.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Free settler for USA when they discover horseback riding.

Way, way, way too strong. Would definitely make America a top-tier Civ, maybe even over the top. It would probably comes at roundabout the same time that Collective Rule gets there, meaning two free Settlers and 50% cost reduction on future Settlers. Imagine being forward settled by Washington thrice at like ~Turn 30. That's terror.




In general, Bob raises an excellent point: when buffing or nerfing certain Civilizations one always has to keep in mind hat the AI benefits from those changes, too.

In my opinion America is already one of the stronger AIs because Musket is a unit the AI loves to spam and so are Bombers.

Washington is also an AI that likes to go very wide, which is buffed in the mod. Implementing the +1 move to Settlers will be hugely beneficial for the AI, especially on Deity. We'll have to see just how beneficial.

 

[Chum]

Washington is also an AI that likes to go very wide, which is buffed in the mod. Implementing the +1 move to Settlers will be hugely beneficial for the AI, especially on Deity. We'll have to see just how beneficial.

I don't know what causes it, but I have definitely seen the AI move on to a hill and settle on the same turn as it is.

 

[DeAnno]

As I was playing today I had a couple thoughts:

-Pledges to Protect as currently are pretty mindless and meaningless. You pledge every CS you meet, and if they're ever attacked you can back it up if you feel like it or if not basically lose nothing worthwhile, since the CS will likely be eaten anyway. I would like to see a higher static Pledge Influence threshold, but a penalty for influence with ALL City States whenever you fail to back up any pledge. This might encourage people to only Pledge CSes they have an intent to maybe actually protect.

-Windmills are often derided as being sort of a suspect building to ever make, for good reason. I was thinking it might be good to adjust those and similar rarely built buildings to favor Tall empires more as an enticement to a bit of Tall play. Maybe take away the base production but make the buildings +% bonus more significant.

 

[noto2]

Alright, finally we get around to balancing the civs!! I've been waiting for this.

Now, about America. So far, people seem to think America's theme should be to go wide and gobble up lots of land. That could be represented in a fairly simple way, a way that the AI would handle well.

Manifest Destiny: Tile acquisition cost is reduced by 25%, whether by culture or gold. +1 gold for every luxury resource tile. +1 happiness for each unique luxury resource in American lands.


However, I've always thought America's theme should be different. It should be a sleeping giant, with no bonuses in the early game. Come the industrial age, however, the giant awakes.

American Exceptionalism: During a golden age, America gets a 50% bonus to production (instead of the usual 20%). Upon reaching the industrial era, America enters a free golden age. Upon choosing an ideology, America gets an additional starting tenet (so 3 instead of 2, if America is first to the ideology). +25% Tourism to civilizations with a different ideology.

I know this sounds like a lot, but try to imagine a game as America where your UA is essentially non-existent for the first half of the game. Try to compare this to a civ like Babylon, or Poland. You'd have to play exceptionally well to just keep up with the other civs all the way to the industrial era. More likely, you'll be behind in most demographic categories by that point, and your UA is what allows you to compete for the latter half of the game. The boosted golden age synergizes with America's Minuteman UU. To help America survive until the industrial age, those Minutemen can fight off invaders and generate golden age points, and if America enters a golden age, that +50% production will help it defend itself.

Also, it would make playing against an American AI interesting. You'd want to wipe them out before the industrial era, or you've got a big problem on your hands, of course those Minutemen would give you pause.

Thoughts?

 

[noto2]

As for the Ottomans, they had really high quality cannons and their infantry were very good with fire-arms before European mastered them. I'd suggest making the Ottoman UA siege related.

All siege weapons get a free volley promotion (+50% dmg vs cities) and a free indirect fire promotion. All melee ships get a free Coastal Raider 1 promotion.

Also, I'm not sure if it's within the scope of this mod to change UU's. If it is, I'd leave the janissary, but replace their mounted UU with a cannon UU - the "bombard". It could perhaps get +1 range, though that might be too powerful, especially with the UA I just mentioned. It could simply get increased ranged strength.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

I don't know what causes it, but I have definitely seen the AI move on to a hill and settle on the same turn as it is.

Kilimanjaro is the usual suspect.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

However, I've always thought America's theme should be different. It should be a sleeping giant, with no bonuses in the early game. Come the industrial age, however, the giant awakes.

American Exceptionalism: During a golden age, America gets a 50% bonus to production (instead of the usual 20%). Upon reaching the industrial era, America enters a free golden age. Upon choosing an ideology, America gets an additional starting tenet (so 3 instead of 2, if America is first to the ideology). +25% Tourism to civilizations with a different ideology.

I know this sounds like a lot, but try to imagine a game as America where your UA is essentially non-existent for the first half of the game. Try to compare this to a civ like Babylon, or Poland. You'd have to play exceptionally well to just keep up with the other civs all the way to the industrial era. More likely, you'll be behind in most demographic categories by that point, and your UA is what allows you to compete for the latter half of the game. The boosted golden age synergizes with America's Minuteman UU. To help America survive until the industrial age, those Minutemen can fight off invaders and generate golden age points, and if America enters a golden age, that +50% production will help it defend itself.

Also, it would make playing against an American AI interesting. You'd want to wipe them out before the industrial era, or you've got a big problem on your hands, of course those Minutemen would give you pause.

Thoughts?

No offense, but that's completely ridiculous. Like two levels above Poland ridiculous. Just to start:

Any good player can manage a permanent Golden Age for the last ~60-80 turns of the game.

Persia, a Civ often considered to be among the very best has a bonus of +1 Move for every unit and +10% Combat Strength. That alone makes them a strong Civ. The +50% bonus on GA makes them a top-tier Civ.

Now compare that to the bonus you want to give America: +50% Production (+30%) during a GA. That in alone is completely bonkers. It's nuts. You could outproduce any and every AI and just spam them with Cavalry/Landships/Tanks/Modern Armor.

What I'm saying is that the first part of your three buffs is already two notches over the top. Maybe something like +40% (+20%) would be acceptable if it was the only bonus they had. The only one.

But you want to give them a free GA upon entering Industrial (one of if not the most critical era of the game).

You want to give them an additional tenet, which in reality means upon entering Industrial era America get's the following (assuming you rushbuy Factories):

-Golden Age gold bonus
-Golden Age culture bonus
-+50% Production to Everything
-+25% Tourism modifier
-Two Freedom Tenets
-Six units of essentially Great War Infantry

If you prebuild some units you can rush an opponent with just that.

Even more insane:

-Golden Age gold
-Golden Age culture
-+50% Production
-+25% Tourism
-Buildings cost 25% less gold
-+2 Happiness from Monuments
-+25% Science output from all cities with a Factory (that means all your core cities, as you rushbuy Factories)
-All your other cities build Factories in no time whatsoever, seeing as you get +50% production towards Factories plus the +50% Production from your Golden Age

Another thing to take into account is that this is precisely the time where you have TONS of things to build, for example: Factory -> Hydro Plant -> Stock Exchange -> Hospitals -> Ideology Wonder

Those lategame buildings are key to winning the game. The sooner you get them up the stronger your lategame will be, especially the Production and Food buildings.

Imagine the America AI getting Ideology on Turn 120 or 130 (has happened to me countless times on DemiGod, is pretty much the norm on Deity) and rushing you with Great War Infantry. You're probably still using Crossbows and Muskets at that time.

As for the Ottomans, they had really high quality cannons and their infantry were very good with fire-arms before European mastered them. I'd suggest making the Ottoman UA siege related.

All siege weapons get a free volley promotion (+50% dmg vs cities) and a free indirect fire promotion. All melee ships get a free Coastal Raider 1 promotion.

Also, I'm not sure if it's within the scope of this mod to change UU's. If it is, I'd leave the janissary, but replace their mounted UU with a cannon UU - the "bombard". It could perhaps get +1 range, though that might be too powerful, especially with the UA I just mentioned. It could simply get increased ranged strength.

This on the other hand I really like.

 

[beetle]

I don't know what causes it, but I have definitely seen the AI move on to a hill and settle on the same turn as it is.

I think that might be a visual artifact. That is, two turns of animation displaying between turns because of how the line of sight worked.

Kilimanjaro is the usual suspect.

Kilimanjaro does not buff worker and missionary move (at least). I really doubt it would effect settlers.

 

[noto2]

No offense, but that's completely ridiculous. Like two levels above Poland ridiculous. Just to start:

Really? By the industrial age Poland has 4 free policies, they have a stable that provides extra XP to mounted units, and a good UU. All of this comes before the Americans would get to use their UA.

Also, do the math... it's quite common in a game for a civ to have base hammers multiplied by

+10% for liberty
+20% for a workshop and windmill
+15% for religion

All before the industrial era. That's base hammers times 1.45
Let's be fair here and accept that you won't often have all of these, so we'll say 1.3

Now a golden age brings that to 1.5

America would get 1.8

That's 1.8 vs 1.5, a difference of 0.3 0.3 goes into 1.5 5 times, so America would effectively be getting a 20% hammer advantage over other civs in a golden age.

So, in reality, America's advantage, as I stated it, would give them a 20% boost to hammers ONLY during a golden age. Compare that to Germany's UA, which is very easy to get to a 20-30% hammer bonus at ALL times by the industrial age, or Rome's bonus which gives +25% MOST of the time, not just during golden ages.


It is true, though, that in the unmodded game many UA's are practically worthless and/or non-existent, so a UA that is powerful really stands out, like Korea's, Babylon's, or Poland's. So it's true that this UA would put America into top tier. You can play with the numbers. What do you think of the basic idea, though, that America gets a serious late-game boost?

 

[Lord Yanaek]

What do you think of the basic idea, though, that America gets a serious late-game boost?

I think "if it's not broken, don't fix it" Manifest Destiny is not "broken" as it stands. It might deserve a small boost (it was meant to make America an expansive civ, but was created before Shoshone showed what expansive means). The idea to reduce both gold and culture cost isn't bad. I don't think totally changing the UA and the theme of a civilization is within the scope of this mod (unless Acken decides otherwise).

Might be an interesting idea for a separate mod if you want to create it thought. Could be fun for a change, but i think i would keep America as it is more often. I don't like pure late-game powers.

 

[Lord Yanaek]

Acken, did you change anything related to map generation that could cause some map scripts (not NQ) to "hang" and freeze the game. I've tried to generate a map using Tilted Axis script just for fun (i think it's part of Explorers map pack DLC) but the game froze before the "dawn of man" screen and i had to kill CiV using Task Manager. This occurred twice with your mod and not without it.
I had no other mods active, just EUI but it shouldn't affect map generation.
Tried again a 3rd time after i successfully created a map without your mod but i still can't generate a map using this script with your mod active. I don't know if other scripts would fail too. I know basic Pangaea and Fractal both works.

I had a bunch of lines concerning luxuries at the end of my Lua log after the second attempt.

[5562.218] Map Script: Start Location: 	20	16	Plot Location: 	1685
[5562.218] Map Script: Location is coastal
[5562.218] Map Script: --- Eligible Types List for Second Luxury in Region#	1	---
[5562.218] Map Script: Types Allowed: 	7
[5562.218] Map Script: ############### RANDOMS ###############
[5562.218] Map Script: Rnds To Place: 	1
[5562.218] Map Script: Num Ramdoms: 	6
[5562.218] Map Script: Types Allowed: 	7
[5562.218] Map Script: Selected Lux: 	19
[5562.218] Map Script: Left To Place: 	0
[5562.218] Map Script: ############### RANDOMS ###############
[5562.218] Map Script: -
[5562.218] Map Script: Placed Second Luxury type of ID#	19	for start located at Plot	20	16	 in Region#	1
[5562.218] Map Script: --
[5562.218] Map Script: Start Location: 	10	23	Plot Location: 	2403
[5562.218] Map Script: Location is coastal
[5562.218] Map Script: --- Eligible Types List for Second Luxury in Region#	2	---
[5562.218] Map Script: Types Allowed: 	1
[5562.218] Map Script: ############### RANDOMS ###############
[5562.218] Map Script: Rnds To Place: 	1
[5562.218] Map Script: Num Ramdoms: 	6
[5562.218] Map Script: Types Allowed: 	1
[5562.218] Map Script: Selected Lux: 	18
[5562.218] Map Script: Left To Place: 	0
[5562.218] Map Script: ############### RANDOMS ###############
[5562.218] Map Script: Num To Place: 	1
[5562.218] Map Script: Left To Place: 	0
[5562.218] Map Script: -
[5562.218] Map Script: Failed to place second Luxury type at start in Region#	2	-- no eligible positions!
[5562.218] Map Script: -

 

[DeAnno]

I have gotten hangs even with NQ at times in that place, they seem to be random and I just force Civ closed and restart it.

 

[Lord Yanaek]

Yep, i had this once with NQ Pangaea, but this time it's thrice on 3 attempts to use that particular script that shouldn't even have been modified by the mod. I guess either something in the mod, or in the NQ maps have changed parts of the CiV World Builder script(s) and caused the issue. I would guess it's related to placing luxuries as it seems like the freeze occurred during that step. Maybe the script attempts to place too many resources and runs out of tiles given that the number of available tiles is lower on Tilted Axis (half the world being frozen in ice)

 

[yung.carl.jung]

@Noto

You are right, maybe I overreacted. However please consider the following:

As for Germany - The Hanse is only available in Renaissance. Furthermore in the Ren. era most of your Trade Routes will still be internal (probably at least two or three, maybe even four TR feeding the capital).

The Production bonus also comes with a huge opportunity cost - You sacrifice Science and a lot of Gold you would normally get out of a trade route with a foreign Capital and have to trade with City States.

Also consider that the bonus only applies to one city, because generally you will have all of your outgoing Caravans in your capital which has the Caravansary and the East India Trade Company. So the bonus is restricted in many, many ways-

As for Rome it is sort of similiar. True, it is a very big production bonus and if you rushbuy buildings in the capital (you should) it serves practically your entire empire.

However it does not help your most important city at all - the Capital. The Capital is usually where Ironworks are stationed, where you want to accumulate all of your production bonuses.

Furthermore this does absolutely nothing to help with both Wonders and - far more important - Unit production. Unit production is essential, especially in Acken's mod.

The golden Age bonus you proposed surpasses both those problems: It is for units, civilian units, wonders and buildings and it is in every single city of yours.

The only opportunity cost is saving all (most) of your Artists for later in the game (Industrial), which you should do anyway since timing Golden Age with things like Hermitage, a Engineered' Wonder and, especially important, the World's Fair is absolutely critical in terms of culture management.

 

[chumchu]

Did a game as Japan to try out changes to coastal cities and exploration. Wanted to found a lot more cities as well. Posting Screenshots from the same turn as my Egypt (176) for comparison. In short, I'm slightly behind in pop even with 2 extra cities and way behind in science and culture. I founded 6 cities early and had to use the liberty GP to get a religion as I wanted to keep for fishing boat pantheon with celts as my neighbor and I was desperate for happiness as my lands had only 4 luxuries. I was attacked by the Celts and Korea turn 56 because of my aggressive expansion. This and my lack of happy slowed my growth substantially but I eventually conquered Korea with spamming spears and triremes =). Tech path was sailing, bronze, horseback, metal casting, philo, optics, civil service, education, navigation, industry, fertilizer, scientific theory. The 5 cities I founded after I rushed astronomy are in great locations and have gotten production ships asap but have yet to pay themselves back, they will do so by turn 200 I think. Now I just have to take on liberty, honor, commerce, autocracy Poland =). My plan it to avoid war in industrial as they have winged hussars and rifles already and try to get them in modern era after research labs with GWI, Artillery and Battleships and planes.

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Some comments on balance. Even in almost optimal conditions these late cities are not op. Exploration might beat commerce in a totally coastal empire like mine but in most cases the gold/prod/happy in exploration while giving a slight edge in the midgame will be inferior to commerce purchasing and luxury happiness. Treasure ships are good either really early or late game, but without commerce purchasing you kind of want the production cargo ships. It feels a bit odd at its current place.

My suggestion is to do like NQ-mod and put resettlements (now called colonialism) in exploration instead of navigation schools.
- Navigation schools is incredibly meh, if you do naval war you will get your admiral fast anyway and he has 5 movement from astronomy and possibly up to with great lighthouse and steam power. Getting more admirals is not very useful.
- At it current place in order resettlements will never ever be chosen. Even if you for some reason want to found new cities that late, you will never chose resettlement over party elite as your first level 2 policy. Giving up workers faculties is not good either.
- In exploration it might enable peaceful midgame expansion and give that that tree a more unique feeling. We want to scale it back a bit from the NQ mod as the power level is generally higher there. I suggest it gives 3 pop, free granary and 6 tiles in newly founded cities. The extra settler production from resettlements is unnecessary as the problem is getting the new cities up to speed, not that settlers are to expensive for the core cities.

- As to what to do with the extra policy in order. I suggest you break out bits of other strong policies to a create new one one: "Great Leap". Remove the extra production per city from five year plan and party elite. Remove the extra factory production from workers faculties. "The Great Leap": double production of factories and hospitals and 3 production per city. If you want to nerf gold purchasing make it a level 1 policy and scyscrapers a level 2 policy and decrease the extra prod per city to 2.