Adding Canada to the civ world

[Brian Mc]

Making a tank or a ship isnt a matter of just grabbings some metal and throwing it together. The designs have to carefully tested and materials carefully chosen. Canada doesnt have this experience as it buys most of its aircraft (and prolly fleet) from the US and other NATO countries. THis experience doesnt just grow on trees.

Again, I'd ask that you learn something about what you speak before you do. I won't call you ignorant, but there you go.

 

[Corvex]

What? The Americans needed you? When was that?

September 11th, when we were good enough to land America's planes in our territory.

 

[Pounder]

Making a tank or a ship isnt a matter of just grabbings some metal and throwing it together. The designs have to carefully tested and materials carefully chosen. Canada doesnt have this experience as it buys most of its aircraft (and prolly fleet) from the US and other NATO countries. THis experience doesnt just grow on trees.

After standing down after WWI, Canada's Navy had 13 ships at the beginning of WWII and finished the WAR with 400 ships, which shows the mobilization that Canada is Capable. During the WAR, Canada built the 3rd largest Air Force and the 3rd largest Navy during the War.

After standing down after WWII, Canada only had 50 ships by 1950.

In addition:
25% of the British Royal Air Force were Canadian flyers.
Royal Canadian Air Force Squadrons fought in the Battle of Britain.
Canada participated in WWII from September 1939 until victory in Europe and Japan in 1945
14,000 Canadian troops stormed one of the D Day Beaches - Juno Beach.
Canadian troops invaded Sicily in 1943 along with US and British troops. (76,000 Canadians served in Italy)
The Royal Canadian Navy played a crucial role in the Battle of the Atlantic.

 

[Pounder]

Where have you seen that? I heard exactly the opposite, and poeple marying and injuring themselves to avoid to go to the front (at least in Quebec) doesn't seem to me as volunteering (or as strange volunteering). The Maurice Richard was supposed to go, but got injured in a game, and stayed.

I am just saying that Canada had no draft, but still managed to enlist a percentage equal to any country with conscription.

 

[Pounder]

What? The Americans needed you? When was that?

Do you realize that the USA gets more oil from Canada than it does from any other country in the World and the USA just came to realize it within the last couple weeks is you listen to the news.

In hindsite, if the USA would have invested the billions of dollars that they spent in Iraq, on development of North American Oil reserves, there is as much oil in Alberta than anywhere else in the world.

 

[Corvex]

Do you realize that the USA gets more oil from Canada than it does from any other country in the World and the USA just came to realize it within the last couple weeks is you listen to the news.

In hindsite, if the USA would have invested the billions of dollars that they spent in Iraq, on development of North American Oil reserves, there is as much oil in Alberta than anywhere else in the world.

Don' tell him that! Now we're going to be invaded!

 

[Pounder]

In 2004, Canada took first place, ahead of Saudi Arabia, as the largest foreign supplier of crude oil to the US, according to data released by the Energy Information Agency of the U.S. Department of Energy.

Canada remains the largest supplier of oil (crude and refined combined) to the US in 2004, supplying 2.1 million barrels per day. This represents the sixth consecutive year, from 1999 to 2004, that Canada was the number one foreign supplier of oil to the U.S. Canadian oil represents 17% of US oil imports and 10% of US consumption.

Canadian oil production continues to increase each year, with production expansion of Alberta’s oil sands, and of the Atlantic offshore. In 2004, over a million barrels of crude oil per day were produced from the oil sands, about a third of total Canadian production. With planned investments, oil sands production is projected to double by the end of the decade.

At roughly 180 billion barrels (5 billion conventional and 175 billion established oil sands), Canada has the second largest reserves in the world.

Foreign Affairs Canada

And from the US govt:

quote:
Canada sends over 99% of its crude oil exports to the U.S., and the country is one of the most important sources of U.S. oil imports. During the first eleven months of 2004, Canada exported 1.62 million bbl/d of crude oil to the U.S., the single-largest component of U.S. crude oil imports. Canada also sent some 500,000 bbl/d of petroleum products to the U.S. during this period, the most from a single country. The largest share of U.S.-bound Canadian oil exports (65%) go to the Midwest (PAD District II), with smaller amounts heading to the Rocky Mountains (PAD District IV) and the East Coast (PAD District I).

http://eia.doe.gov/

1234567890

 

[frekk]

**deleted**

 

[Brian Mc]

After standing down after WWI, Canada's Navy had 13 ships at the beginning of WWII and finished the WAR with 400 ships, which shows the mobilization that Canada is Capable. During the WAR, Canada built the 3rd largest Air Force and the 3rd largest Navy during the War.

After standing down after WWII, Canada only had 50 ships by 1950.

In addition:
25% of the British Royal Air Force were Canadian flyers.
Royal Canadian Air Force Squadrons fought in the Battle of Britain.
Canada participated in WWII from September 1939 until victory in Europe and Japan in 1945
14,000 Canadian troops stormed one of the D Day Beaches - Juno Beach.
Canadian troops invaded Sicily in 1943 along with US and British troops. (76,000 Canadians served in Italy)
The Royal Canadian Navy played a crucial role in the Battle of the Atlantic.

Not to mention that the Canadians were the only country to coplete all their objectives in the invasion.

 

[Belcarius]

Dudes! Calm down. It is natural to feel that you would like to be able to play as your home country and do a better job running it than those in the past, but the simple fact is: the Civs that get put in are the ones most people are familiar with from history books. You can keep espouting information about Canada's importance in the world today, but the reality is that it's a very young nation, and compared to the obvious choice of the USA, it has not made an enormous and profound impact on our history even last century. The reality is: Civ is very much focused on popular history. That's why they generally choose civs that people will have heard of, and leaders they are likely to know about (while avoiding dodgy ones who might get them into trouble). Go up to most people and ask them to name one of Canada's leaders and I'd expect they'd have no idea. But everyone just about knows who Lincoln, Mao, Hiawatha, Joan D'Arc and the other randoms are. It is dumb to suggest that putting Canada in over someone else would hurt sales, but it might get people annoyed that there is some Civ in there that they know almost nothing about (wait and see what happens with the Mali...). Besides, if they put Canada in, theoretically they should put in a whole load of other Civs on the basis of appealing to contemporary audiences. Australia, Brazil, Ukraine, Mexico, Indonesia all have either a massive landmass or a massive population. If oil is a criterea, than we should put in Brunei, that puny country in SE Asia. Lastly, I don't think being one of those G8 fatcats gives you any right to be in Civ (rights come AFTER responsibilities).

All you need to do is learn how to mod. Stop venting your spleen on attempting to get Firaxis to put Canada in because it obviously won't happen now, and frankly there is less chance for it in an expack. It's better to sweat tears than to sweat blood.

 

[brinko]

canada once had the 2nd or 3rd largest navy in the world. now vancouvers fairy fleet outnumbers it... but thats not because we cant build them, its cause we dont need too, we are not endangered, nor do we feel insecure.

off topic, Muslums are not the enemy, and neither are we to the muslums. People dont let the terrorists win by thinking otherwise.

 

[frekk]

It's a simple fact that the USA had a larger economy in the year 1900. They didn't build up military or anything, because of the isolation policy they had back then. So they didn't have much projection power on the planet, but they still had more manufactering and production then anyone else on the planet. The only area in the brittish empire that had industry was britain itself, that's not enough to compete with the entire USA at the time.

There was a huge 'outsourced' industrial base built on sweatshop textile mills and similar industries in countries like India or South Africa, so this is factually untrue. Not to mention that most of the "white dominions" also possessed areas of heavy industry. In addition, not only was England fully industrialized, Scotland and parts of Ireland were also heavily industrial by this time. In the US, however, industry was limited to a relatively small part of the country, including parts of New England and a small portion of the Great Lakes area. Everything else served the same function as the Empire did for Britain - raw materials and agricultural produce. Most US exports at this time remained agricultural, the textile industry was in decline since emancipation, and there were few markets for American steel, the one area where it enjoyed a marginal lead over Britain. American manufacturing wasn't diverse enough at this time to outperform British manufacturing, but it was building key components (such as steel) for a much larger industrial base than Britain, whereas British industry was at a developed peak after the tremendous expansion of the latter half of the 19th century. British coal and iron sources, in particular, were stretched to their limit and this imposed a ceiling, whereas the US was only beggining to tap several huge deposits. In a modern analogy, Germany France and the US were "tiger economies" capable of much higher levels of annual growth. But in 1900, Britain still led the world in overall industrial capacity.



Of course crisis was very much imminent at the close of the Victorian era ... however it was not yet a fact, for at least a decade.

Encompassing about a third of the world doesn't mean much when more then three quarters of that is in the area of India/Pakistan/Bangladash/Burma. That area made up most of the infamous 'one third of the world'.

Its not the population, though that was great for cheap labour in the textile mills. It was the resources of the *Geographic* third (well, quarter, really) of the world's landmass that Britain controlled. That means alot, particularly in an era where there were no inexpensive synthetic alternatives to certain key industrial resources such as rubber and others were required in vast quantities.

Britain's free trade network made it so that everyone else benefited from the empire just as much as britain did for the most part. It's something that is generally looked at as a mistake by britain.

You misunderstand the economic crisis of the Commonwealth. That everyone benefitted was an advantage, since it helped to generate richer markets for British manufacturing. Nor was it a "free trade market" per se. It was a system of preferential markets, which created difficulties for both exporters and importers in certain respects, particularly once foreign industry started to become competitive.

Don't say incorrect, just state your claim. British ww1 tanks were nothing amazing, they didn't contribute vastly to the war, they were more of an experiment then anything. The reason they became commonly noted is that they were the experiment that lead to the development of modern tank warfare, not because they were amazing in the war itself, most of the war was trench warfare, with tanks having a very minor role.

Amazing? No. They were absolutely minor. But in *relative terms* to German tanks of ww1, they performed much better. They certainly made a huge impression on the German troops; including a number of individuals who later became visionaries or converts to the new mobile warfare and deep battle doctrine of WW2.

The navy was bigger yes, but that still doesn't make it the 'sole superpower' of the world. There were other navies out there, and the reason they had a huge navy was because they had virtually no large land army to speak of.

Wha??!! Britain had a massive land army in sum, but it was spread thin.

Then why did France, Germany, Belgium, the US, Russia, Japan, Italy, and the Netherlands build up world empires also at the time?

Simple. None of it involved the capability to project force at a global scale. All the expansion you mention falls into 3 categories:

-Localized regional expansion (eg Russia or US expansion into Spanish holdings, Japanese expansion, etc)

-the result of transfers by treaty (eg Phillipines),

- expansion which didn't require the ability to project force in any sense signifigant between industrial nations (eg Guam or the addition of Congolese jungle inhabited only by tribal groups).

There were only two instances of true force projection during this time by nations other than Britain, neither of which was succesful. The Italians got nailed by some spearmen in Ethiopa, and Spain failed to prevent the loss of its colonies in the Western Hemisphere.

 

[Brian Mc]

Dudes! Calm down. It is natural to feel that you would like to be able to play as your home country and do a better job running it than those in the past, but the simple fact is: the Civs that get put in are the ones most people are familiar with from history books. You can keep espouting information about Canada's importance in the world today, but the reality is that it's a very young nation, and compared to the obvious choice of the USA, it has not made an enormous and profound impact on our history even last century. The reality is: Civ is very much focused on popular history. That's why they generally choose civs that people will have heard of, and leaders they are likely to know about (while avoiding dodgy ones who might get them into trouble). Go up to most people and ask them to name one of Canada's leaders and I'd expect they'd have no idea. But everyone just about knows who Lincoln, Mao, Hiawatha, Joan D'Arc and the other randoms are. It is dumb to suggest that putting Canada in over someone else would hurt sales, but it might get people annoyed that there is some Civ in there that they know almost nothing about (wait and see what happens with the Mali...). Besides, if they put Canada in, theoretically they should put in a whole load of other Civs on the basis of appealing to contemporary audiences. Australia, Brazil, Ukraine, Mexico, Indonesia all have either a massive landmass or a massive population. If oil is a criterea, than we should put in Brunei, that puny country in SE Asia. Lastly, I don't think being one of those G8 fatcats gives you any right to be in Civ (rights come AFTER responsibilities).

All you need to do is learn how to mod. Stop venting your spleen on attempting to get Firaxis to put Canada in because it obviously won't happen now, and frankly there is less chance for it in an expack. It's better to sweat tears than to sweat blood.

I don't think anyone is seriously arguing that Canada should be in, we know it won't be, because, as you say "popular history" is what matters... not "actual history". We're saying that the idea that Canada is equivalent to Ukraine, Brazil and Indonesia is preposterous. This thread has been about dispelling ignorant assumptions made about our country, as anyone would do put in a similar situation.

 

[frekk]

We're saying that the idea that Canada is equivalent to Ukraine, Brazil and Indonesia is preposterous.

Ukraine and Indonesia, yes. Either of those have a long way to go to catch up to the Canadian economy.

Brazil is, ah, most people aren't aware of just how economically powerful Brazil has become. Brazil is actually the world's 10th largest economy, ahead of both South Korea and Canada and ranking just below Russia. Technically speaking it has more rights to be sitting in the G8 than Canada does. They seem to be very sneaky and quiet about their rise to power for some reason. I think one might reasonably assert that Brazil's appropriateness for inclusion would be, perhaps not equivalent, but certainly in the same league as Canada's (even though neither are appropriate enough to be included).

 

[Brian Mc]

Mao, Hiawatha, Joan D'Arc and the other randoms are

You have a tremendous amount of faith in your fellow man. I might nominate you for Pope. I'd be willing to make a bet on North American knowledge concerning the current civs and leaders.

Brazil is, ah, most people aren't aware of just how economically powerful Brazil has become. Brazil is actually the world's 10th largest economy, ahead of both South Korea and Canada and ranking just below Russia. Technically speaking it has more rights to be sitting in the G8 than Canada does. They seem to be very sneaky and quiet about their rise to power for some reason.

Brazil's per capita GDP: $8100
Canada's per capita GDP: $31500
Brazil also has 22% of its population below the poverty line, as determined by the CIA.
Brazil's labour force is: 20% agricultural, 14% industrial and 66% Service
Canada's is: 3% Agri, 15% Manufacturing, 5% Construction, 74% Service and 3% other.

So, no Brazil technically does not belong to the G8. They are leading industrialized countries. Brazil is borderline industrialized.

 

[Corvex]

I honestly don't think that there are very many people who have not read Longfellow (which means the overwhelming majority of people everywhere) who have heard of Hiawatha.

 

[Brian Mc]

I vote we end this discussion now and let the thread go to the bottom of the board, never to be seen again.

 

[Lockesdonkey]

Ack! Line by line at civfanatics! About Canada! Who'd've thought it!

 

[mastertyguy]

What? The Americans needed you? When was that?

From where the (theorical) soviet missiles would have to pass? Isn't Alert in Canadian territory? Those bases are not there to detect a missile to strike on Toronto or Edmonton, are they? Doesn't detecting them from Wisconsin gives you less time to react?

 

[mastertyguy]

I vote we end this discussion now and let the thread go to the bottom of the board, never to be seen again.

At least, this discussion has arguments, it is better than the Quebec one in 65 civilizations.