Adopting policies between Tradition and Rationalism

[Kriogen]

Commerce. Can't go wrong with more money.

Patronage is not so bad.

 

[Athenaeum]

I always take the right half of Commerce when going for a Tradition/Rationalism mix.

This is the policy choices I use for fast Science VC games. I often find that I have 1-2 policies after finishing Tradition but before reaching the Renaissance. I also find that I don't want to delay Oracle for a Rationalism policy because the AI will often build it before me in that case.

The reason I take Commerce is because I also take Freedom for my Science VC games. With Mercantilism and Big Ben, purchasing SS components (and anything else...hello Research Labs) is 40% cheaper. I find that I generally build 2-3 SS components and buy 3-4 SS components for the win.

You say the right side of Commerce. But the third policy on the right side is Protectionism, which you can only adopt once you've only adopted all the other Commerce policies.

So what you're basically saying is that you just take Mercenary Army and Mercantilism. And I'm assuming that you don't make much use of Mercenary Army when going for an SV, so you're basically spending 2 policies just to get the effects of Mercantilism.

Considering you only need to get the Commerce opener to build the Big Ben, do you feel that it is optimal to spend 2 Social Policies simply to acquire the benefits of mercantilism on purchasing spaceship parts? Do you not feel there is a more optimal use for those two policies?

 

[Mesix]

You say the right side of Commerce. But the third policy on the right side is Protectionism, which you can only adopt once you've only adopted all the other Commerce policies.

So what you're basically saying is that you just take Mercenary Army and Mercantilism. And I'm assuming that you don't make much use of Mercenary Army when going for an SV, so you're basically spending 2 policies just to get the effects of Mercantilism.

Considering you only need to get the Commerce opener to build the Big Ben, do you feel that it is optimal to spend 2 Social Policies simply to acquire the benefits of mercantilism on purchasing spaceship parts? Do you not feel there is a more optimal use for those two policies?

No I don't.

 

[joncnunn]

Considering you only need to get the Commerce opener to build the Big Ben, do you feel that it is optimal to spend 2 Social Policies simply to acquire the benefits of mercantilism on purchasing spaceship parts? Do you not feel there is a more optimal use for those two policies?

For Freedom Space race, I think optimum is
1. Full Tradition
2. Filler right side Commerce
3. Interrupt above for Rationalism as soon as you are allowed into the tree: Top Left Rationalism - Right side Rationalism
4. If you anticipate completing RAs after 2 policies, continue Rationalism. Else start Freedom ideology to get better free tech.
5. Spaceship Procurement ASAP
6. Complete right side of Commerce for the extra cash benefit.

So it's more like not having time to do all of that if you didn't host the Worlds Fair unless you are playing Poland.

 

[reddishrecue]

In most tradition -> freedom space race game Ive noticed that science is more of a priority. If you have a coastal start and want to get some good science up early then make internal food trade routes between your cities so that way when you get libraries, you'll get a lot more science from the increase of food from the cargo ship trade routes and then from the increase of population brought along by the food increase from cargo ships.

 

[claudiupb]

Considering you only need to get the Commerce opener to build the Big Ben, do you feel that it is optimal to spend 2 Social Policies simply to acquire the benefits of mercantilism on purchasing spaceship parts? Do you not feel there is a more optimal use for those two policies?

Big Ben by itself is not that strong. Because of the way the purchasing bonuses are calculated, it is very efficient to add mercantilism. Big Ben + Mercantilism get added up (for a 40% discount) but this is compounded with the discounts for purchasing units/buildings from Autocracy and Order (33% discount).

The purchase cost is calculated by multiplying the modifiers (initial cost * multipliers), so for Big Ben alone the multiplier would be 0.85, while if adding mercantilism, we will have 0.6.

If we add the bonuses for purchasing units/buildings, they will be compounded, so 0.6 * 0.67 for Big Ben with mercantilism, or 0.85 * 0.67 for Big Ben alone. So you will not have a 77% or 48% reduction in purchasing things, like one might expect, but a 59.80% or a 43.05% reduction.

A common strategy for Freedom Science wins, is to get Big Ben + Mercantilism (maybe even finish Commerce later, because if you have enough faith, you can buy a merchant, and get double gold from it, which can help with space parts, also the extra happiness may give a golden age, which will be 50% longer with Universal Suffrage). Of course Freedom does not have an extra discount for purchasing things, so the maximum you get is 40%, but this will help you significantly to buy the space parts, and in most cases you don't even need to hard build any.

Now you are saying that Mercantilism is a waste because you need to get Mercenary Army for it. The thing is Mercenary Army is not useless. Landsknechts are cheap and you can have them be your primary melee unit, if you get the policy early enough, especially if you beeline techs on the top part of the tree (meaning you don't have steel). They can pillage and fortify (plus heal) on the same turn, so they have a greater chance to survive (compared to pikemen), and will give you some gold over time especially with the double pillage from cities. With Big Ben and Mercantilism, they are so cheap that with freedom you can rush buy them and gift them to city states for 20 influence.

Plus I see that the fact that Mercantilism gives you science, 1 per Market, Mint, Bank and Stock Exchange is ignored. You will most likely have markets, mints are situational, but later on you will add banks, and even Stock Exchanges in some cases. So this bonus is roughly the same as having an extra citizen in all of your cities (like half the bonus of a CN tower, only in medieval era).

Of course depending on situation, there can be a better use for 2 SPs but getting mercantilism once you open commerce is pretty solid.

 

[joncnunn]

A common strategy for Freedom Science wins, is to get Big Ben + Mercantilism (maybe even finish Commerce later, because if you have enough faith, you can buy a merchant, and get double gold from it, which can help with space parts, also the extra happiness may give a golden age, which will be 50% longer with Universal Suffrage).

I'm guessing the part about completing Commerce is specific to Poland since I don't see a way under optimum play for non-Poland to not have already launched the spaceship by the time they complete Commerce tree. Even there that would take a lot of faith, because as long as faith costs are equal, both a GE and GS would reduce time to victory more than a GM.

 

[claudiupb]

It's not optimum to complete Commerce, but if you do things a little slower, it is doable, and it helps countering the unhappiness from ideology pressure. You can buy a GM if you have some faith left, but not enough for a GE or GS.

 

[Væringjar]

Definitely Patronage. More food, culture, happiness plus Forbiden Palace. Also, CS' boost your Science.

 

[BlackWizard]

Perhaps a tad off-topic, but did you guys know that if you adopt the Patronage opener with Greece and spread your religion to city-states, your influence with them degrades 0 per turn. I found that out recently and was astounded by it.

Really? Speed is differnet with diffrenet city states. Maybe you just dont know that

 

[Aenthin]

Really? Speed is differnet with diffrenet city states. Maybe you just dont know that

Reduction of city-state influence is percentage based (50% from Greek UA, 25% from shared religion, 25% from Patronage opener. That's 100% all in all). It doesn't matter if the city-state is hostile or not, it will degrade 0 influence per turn if you are Greece with Patronage and share the same religion.

 

[joncnunn]

Reduction of city-state influence is percentage based (50% from Greek UA, 25% from shared religion, 25% from Patronage opener. That's 100% all in all). It doesn't matter if the city-state is hostile or not, it will degrade 0 influence per turn if you are Greece with Patronage and share the same religion.

Hostile CS by default does indeed decrease more than any other city state type.

So as Greece, a Hostile CS with Patronage opener sharing the same religion does decrease over time (but very slowly).

 

[Aenthin]

Hostile CS by default does indeed decrease more than any other city state type.

So as Greece, a Hostile CS with Patronage opener sharing the same religion does decrease over time (but very slowly).

Again, as I said, influence reduction is percentage based. Yes, Hostile CSes decrease over time moreso than any other CS with a different trait. However, because it's a 100% reduction, 100% of 100 is still 100. Greece will still have a practically permanent friendship or alliance with them regardless of CS trait.

 

[LordDarkanine]

I always liked Patronage for getting and maintaining City-State allies. Granted I've never really played above King Difficulty (I simply don't find anything above it very fun).

 

[reddishrecue]

I have rarely used patronage but when I did, I received all kinds of great people from city states.

 

[Plumfairy]

I always liked Patronage for getting and maintaining City-State allies. Granted I've never really played above King Difficulty (I simply don't find anything above it very fun).

I always play on Immortal, and I often take a couple policies in Patronage. They're really, really helpful. Some of the better players (better than me, at any rate) seem to feel that you're better off taking the right-most policies in Commerce, and they might be right if you're:

A) pushing hard for an optimal victory time
B) really really good, or
C) both of the above.

Since I'm neither A nor B, I usually find the flexibility that Patronage gives me to be more useful than what Commerce has to offer.

I should add that I usually play on Large maps, which makes Patronage more valuable. (Larger map = more city-states)

 

[x2Madda]

Or just win before the AI even gets Ideology ^^

Not everyone is as good at Civ5 as you are.

...Yet

 

[reddishrecue]

A win before ideology? Maybe it happened on a smaller map.

 

[beetle]

Let's say that you really wanted to finish that second tree.

I am always struggling, so unless I am playing Poland or aiming for CV, I am never unlocking policies fast enough to come back to that second tree! Except for CV, there is always a stronger pick in my Ideology.

Filling out Patronage seems like it would be essential for diplo VC, and the last few picks in the tree are nice, but how are they really that important?

 

[Kriogen]

I always play on Immortal, and I often take a couple policies in Patronage. They're really, really helpful. Some of the better players (better than me, at any rate) seem to feel that you're better off taking the right-most policies in Commerce, and they might be right if you're:

A) pushing hard for an optimal victory time
B) really really good, or
C) both of the above.

Since I'm neither A nor B, I usually find the flexibility that Patronage gives me to be more useful than what Commerce has to offer.

I should add that I usually play on Large maps, which makes Patronage more valuable. (Larger map = more city-states)

Id say that Commerce and Patronage are about even.

Problem is that the higher diff you play, the more AI has money to bribe CS so its hard to keep CS as ally. Gets worse if there as civ like Siam around.

Commerce is more predictable. You get what you get. Patronage can be a bit random. Sometimes you get Siam, greeks and mongols, sometimes you get stupid amount of happy faces, more culture you can use and more food then Lake Victoria in every city. Plus Khans and MoVs as a bonus.