Affinity Specific Victories

[Nashoa]

As for Supremacy/Supremacy or Supremacy/Purity conflicting.... well they might directly conflict (ie only a Troop numbers v. settlements numbers)... but I think it is the idea that whoever reaches a certain amount first.

Of course since the Warpgate is a Planetary Wonder, it is possible there can be only one...Which means that whoever builds it first (Purity or Supremacy player) will have to defend it against the other Purity/Supremacy players trying for the same Victory.

The only one Warpgate would work I think.

If it is just who ever reaches a certain amount first though I will be really disappointed. I'm starting to get worried they will all feel really similar at the end of the day. The discovering aliens, depending on how its done, could also feel very similar as well.

 

[stealth_nsk]

I've been thinking about this and there seems to be a fundamental issues with the combination of victory paths by different civ's/factions.

If these issues was the case, the game would be unplayable. There are a lot of possible workarounds and I'm sure game developers implemented some.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

The only one Warpgate would work I think.

If it is just who ever reaches a certain amount first though I will be really disappointed. I'm starting to get worried they will all feel really similar at the end of the day. The discovering aliens, depending on how its done, could also feel very similar as well.

Well I think a key thing that makes Conquest victory interesting is that I only win because everyone else lost, rather than the other way around.

In BNW, they sort of extended that to Diplomacy and Culture Victories...essentially there were new ways for other civs to "Dominate you" and if they "Dominated" everyone in one of these ways, they won.

(Of course there was still the Space Race victory, where my Success doesn't hurt anyone)

Things I could see to make that work for the Affinity Victories

Purity v. Harmony... both might require mutually exclusive "Global Terraforming Levels" (ie Purity >60% Earthlike, Harmony <40% Earthlike)... and if those "Global Terraforming Levels" affected the output of Native Planet tiles (which Harmony uses)/Introduced Earth Planet tiles (which Purity uses)

Then you could have a new "battlefield" where what I do to improve myself and specifically pursue a victory condition, hurts you.



In General, a better spy model, and some type of culture-unhappiness link (like ideologies in BNW) might allow more mechanisms for "Domination".. that aren't directly victory related.

For that matter the Harmony/Supremacy/Purity (even Contact) Victory conditions could require you to invest in specific cultural values (either to be permitted to do that victory or to be successful at it). that would increase the unhappiness of all other civs... At least (and most strongly) those of different Affinities.


So they do have a possibility, and hopefully they apply the lessons of BNWs Diplo and Cultural Victories

 

[Mustakrakish]

I always wanted there to be several victories possible in civ 5, where the game ends not with certain player winning, but end result where achievements of the world is listed. Some won culturally, some launched space ship, with either diplo OR conquest finishing the game obviously, also then listing "time"/score victory. 4 in total, mastery victory being achieving all 4.

But at this point not sure if I'd want it in CivBE since all victory conditions seem like pretty much game over for others except for contact.

 

[mabalogna]

The more I think about supremacy's VC the less inclined I am to believe that a post-human sentient machine race would concern themselves with travelling back to their ancestor home-world in order to 'enslave' and/or 'enlighten the inhabitants; from a thematic standpoint this just doesn't make sense and is probably why some people are feeling that this is just a lazy VC being imposed on the supremacy affinity. It makes perfect sense why the xeno-phobic purity affinity would try reconnecting with their ancestors in the hopes of saving them from a dying world; that fits with their progress through time since this particular group of people resist any sort of deviation from their own biology and have motivation for saving their bretherin

I feel that supremacy should attempt to achieve something more believable, like removing themselves from the planet and entering space - since the goal of supremacy is to embrace robotics in order to compensate for the weakness' of being organic, it seems plausible that the inevitable machine race would no longer need to be tied to a planet in order to survive, and could continue to exist within space. Others have suggested the idea of a central hive like super computer that everyone willfully submits their conscious to, thus transcending from their physical bodies and into a new existence.

I think if the designers are taking into consideration the thoughts and suggestions of forums like civfanatics, I really hope they reconsider the supremacy VC and try and give us 3 unique goals that feel thematically realistic for each affinity.

 

[Liex]

The more I think about supremacy's VC the less inclined I am to believe that a post-human sentient machine race would concern themselves with travelling back to their ancestor home-world in order to 'enslave' and/or 'enlighten the inhabitants; from a thematic standpoint this just doesn't make sense and is probably why some people are feeling that this is just a lazy VC being imposed on the supremacy affinity. It makes perfect sense why the xeno-phobic purity affinity would try reconnecting with their ancestors in the hopes of saving them from a dying world; that fits with their progress through time since this particular group of people resist any sort of deviation from their own biology and have motivation for saving their bretherin

I feel that supremacy should attempt to achieve something more believable, like removing themselves from the planet and entering space - since the goal of supremacy is to embrace robotics in order to compensate for the weakness' of being organic, it seems plausible that the inevitable machine race would no longer need to be tied to a planet in order to survive, and could continue to exist within space. Others have suggested the idea of a central hive like super computer that everyone willfully submits their conscious to, thus transcending from their physical bodies and into a new existence.

I think if the designers are taking into consideration the thoughts and suggestions of forums like civfanatics, I really hope they reconsider the supremacy VC and try and give us 3 unique goals that feel thematically realistic for each affinity.

Maybe they (the supremacy players) are programmed to come back to Earth and "save" humanity. Earth is in a bad place, so its more prodigious communities are sponsoring several long-term expeditions to distant planets, searching for "a new home, a new beginning for mankind" etc. If these expeditions don't fail right away, I think they can succeed in their quest only if they provide humanity that new "home" or "beginning". They are being paid to solve a problem; the different affinities are basically different answers for that problem.

That's why I think it's fitting to have the Affinity Victories as the return of those expeditions to Earth, once they found a solution. Of course hundreds, thousands of years have passed since then, so Earth's situation may be even more critical, but its "savior" may not be what everyone was expecting... this is actually scary. Will that warpgate deliver us from this dying world and lead us to a New Eden? Or will it unleash a horde of unstoppable machines seeking to free us from our bodies?

Surely the expeditions can deviate from their quest, forgetting about Earth and dominating the new planet for their own, or forgetting about us, poor earthlings, and establishing contact with more advanced and promising beings. But maybe even these victories aren't necessarily bad for Earth; maybe they're actually part of the "solution" (cleaning the planet from hostile forces first, seeking alien help etc.)

 

[Lorizael]

Surely the expeditions can deviate from their quest, forgetting about Earth and dominating the new planet for their own, or forgetting about us, poor earthlings, and establishing contact with more advanced and promising beings. But maybe even these victories aren't necessarily bad for Earth; maybe they're actually part of the "solution" (cleaning the planet from hostile forces first, seeking alien help etc.)

I like that perspective. Humanity realizes that the only solution to its problems is to get all the warmongers to conquer other planets. Reminds me of Niven's Pierson's Puppeteers.

 

[Mustakrakish]

Surely the expeditions can deviate from their quest, forgetting about Earth and dominating the new planet for their own, or forgetting about us, poor earthlings, and establishing contact with more advanced and promising beings. But maybe even these victories aren't necessarily bad for Earth; maybe they're actually part of the "solution" (cleaning the planet from hostile forces first, seeking alien help etc.)

That is a very good point of view. My friend also gave it a thought that maybe they are just completing their mission, helping Earth, but in the only way they think is right.

 

[stealth_nsk]

The more I think about supremacy's VC the less inclined I am to believe that a post-human sentient machine race would concern themselves with travelling back to their ancestor home-world in order to 'enslave' and/or 'enlighten the inhabitants; from a thematic standpoint this just doesn't make sense and is probably why some people are feeling that this is just a lazy VC being imposed on the supremacy affinity.

These are not the only variants.

1. They are saving the Earth. You know, they are humans and they left their homeworld in trouble, so they need to come back and help them. Not in the stupid they purity players do - this will last only before the new planet resources are exhausted. Instead they try to help Earth people with a perspective.

2. They could be afraid of Earth. The Earth still have billions of people and xenophobia is a strong factor. If Earth found another way to save itself, supremacy faction need to ensure its safety.

Personally, I like the first explanation.

 

[mabalogna]

The feeling I got after watching the PAX panel talk when they were talking about how the designers were envisioning the 3 affinities, it seemed as though when the player gets to the end of the game, who they become, is completely different from where they started. In 2 out of 3 cases, the product of genetic modification or cybernetic integration will create completely new races that will look nothing like humans. From this perspective it seems more likely that a purely cybernetic race wouldn't need to concern themselves with the organic mess they left centuries before, and would instead, seek to achieve their transcendence within the cybernetic paradise they've created.

What I'm imagining isn't all that crazy either; the designers are creating the harmony affinity around the idea of complete genetic modification to the point of integration with the planet itself for their transcendence. If the cyborgs of supremacy are concerned with the 'enlightenment' of the people of earth, than you can use that same logic to have the harmony affinity strive to go back to earth in order to 'enlighten' the people left behind on how to fix the planet or something else in the same vein.

I think at the core my problem is more with the fact that it feels like the designers are giving us 2 unique VC and 1 duplicate VC, and while the different affinities will probably play differently I would be so much happier if there was a completely different goal for either purity or supremacy.

 

[Nashoa]

I think at the core my problem is more with the fact that it feels like the designers are giving us 2 unique VC and 1 duplicate VC, and while the different affinities will probably play differently I would be so much happier if there was a completely different goal for either purity or supremacy.

Supremacy also has a ton of overlap with Domination as well.

Its build an army > send to warp gate
vs.
build an army > send it to conquer other civ's.

At least from how they have made it sound so far. It really does sound like its domination for people who don't want the hassle of actually fighting wars.

 

[Mustakrakish]

Well, they all sound like a glorified conquest with that thinking, except harmony which probably is also, we just don't know the details yet. Might as well need to clear some territory for their goal, just like purity.

 

[MatThePhat]

A few things to say. First, the supremacy VC posted on this forum with uploading to a satellite and then blasting off to robotic party in space actually sounds really cool from a mechanic (the new orbital overlay ftw) and thematic point of view. Good to you, I hope they at least add that VC as a possibility!

As for the reasoning behind Emancipation, it reminds me of the Zeroth Law Rebellion.

Let's take this through logically:
1. I can achieve immortal life in the digital web.
2. Fleshly humans are still subject to death and pain.
3. Immortal life is good and death and pain are bad.
4. Therefore, it is my moral imperative to grant everyone immortal life.
4.1 If a person resists, it is better they are uploaded into the web to live eternally and voice their dissent there. If they die in the process, it is tragic, but they were going to die anyway by their own choice.

It is not unlike the debate going on regarding whether we should force people to take vaccines in spite of their opposition to them. The main reason we don't is because we value free will and self-determination, but those aren't necessarily things a robotic being cares about anymore. In the Zeroth Law Rebellion, they only care for the cold hard numbers. Humanity vs. the individual, eternal life vs. a limited one, eternal life is always going to win.

Now, why go to earth instead of hanging around the planet? I'm reminded of a line from the Animorphs (yes, laugh at me) where an imperialistic alien sees earth for the first time, and his first thought (that chilled me to the bone) is "There are just so many of them". Its already established that earth is filled to the literal maximum the planet can sustain, and that's a LOT of people. Even as earth's resources dwindle and fade and the population declines, it will always be at the max (contrasted to our frontier colonization efforts, over the course of the game there will always be more people on earth than our planet). The idea of a technologically backward earth in the center of a technologically advanced human empire was investigated in the fascinating series Old Man's War. It isn't unlikely that Earth spent all its resources on multiple shuttles, realizing the sky was the only future hope of humanity on a dying planet (in spite of their current "rebound" following the Great Mistake), and thus put the best they had on the shuttles, including scientific minds, labs, and other means for future development. With those minds working in the fertile scientific grounds of an alien planet, by the end of the two thousand years, your colony may well be hundreds of years ahead of earth technologically.

Essays aside though, I'm imagining a hilarious situation happening on Mother Earth. A couple thousand years after they launch the shuttles, about ten or twenty colonies build gates back at roughly the same time. All of a sudden, we have ten portals that act as alternating invasion beachheads and colonial escapes to and from these different colonies. Everyone starts to move around, leave, or even join the borg all while stuff blows up. Sounds like an awesomely climactic end to our time on this planet .