Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
True, but the consideration here is which city would make a better capital? Hard to say at the moment.
ALC Game 14: Mongolia/Kublai Khan
- Thread starter Sisiutil
- Start date
slaze
Deity
I'd lean towards the blue circle. It's a little food negative (speaking in terms of pop 20 w/ no farms) but it has a lot of early game production potential.
With pop 7 you could work the corn, 2 plains hills, ivory, the grassland hill (15 hpt) and say 2 grassland cottages. Give it 2 or 3 extra grassland farms to deal with whipping and it'll be a strong production city with significant river commerce.
Agriculture, AH, Mining
City 2 needs horses
With pop 7 you could work the corn, 2 plains hills, ivory, the grassland hill (15 hpt) and say 2 grassland cottages. Give it 2 or 3 extra grassland farms to deal with whipping and it'll be a strong production city with significant river commerce.
Agriculture, AH, Mining
City 2 needs horses
Another Capital Option could be 1N of the Corn, you'd get both the food resources Corn/Cows + 1 Plains hill and 9 forest tiles, plus Fresh water bonus, the only down side it's got 1 coastal tile in your fat-cross which would never get 2F2C because you can't build a lighthouse as your Capital isn't on the coast.
Settling ON the corn is about the worst move imaginable. It would eliminate the ability to work 2 of the 3 food resources that have been revealed so far.
At this point I think you either need to move the settler back to the starting position to settle there on turn 3. Or move to the blue circle tile and at the start of the next turn the scout can move NW then SW and hopefully that will reveal the rest of the tiles in blue circle's BFC. At that point you'll need to decide if founding there makes sense or if you need to continue to move the settler.
1N of the corn is a valid possibility, but almost all of its production comes from forests. It would also have significant overlap with a city founded in the starting position.
Right now the spot 1E of the blue circle looks best to me. It has three strong specials - corn, river, and elephants - which is my criterion for a good starting location. It looks a little better than the blue circle proper since it gets the corn 10 turns earlier and it uses space slightly more efficiently - the blue circle proper means there's no good use for the east coast. It also has one more river grass and one fewer river plains.
However, due to your placement you get to look. You can't found there this turn. So this turn, move onto the blue circle. Next turn you can scout a bit more and either found on the blue circle (if you see something nice to the west or move 1 E and get the more efficient spot next turn anyway.
I wouldn't found to the south/SE of there as you will want a city on your starting location and if your capitol is south/SE of the blue circle that city will get squished even more than it will now.
For my initial cities I don't mind large slices of water. I see the purpose of the initial cities to be strong in the ancient/medieval era, and I usually face strong pop limits then. What matters is bonuses. Later I need the big grassland/hills settlements but I to use the initial cities to give me the oomph to found them.
However, due to your placement you get to look. You can't found there this turn. So this turn, move onto the blue circle. Next turn you can scout a bit more and either found on the blue circle (if you see something nice to the west or move 1 E and get the more efficient spot next turn anyway.
I wouldn't found to the south/SE of there as you will want a city on your starting location and if your capitol is south/SE of the blue circle that city will get squished even more than it will now.
For my initial cities I don't mind large slices of water. I see the purpose of the initial cities to be strong in the ancient/medieval era, and I usually face strong pop limits then. What matters is bonuses. Later I need the big grassland/hills settlements but I to use the initial cities to give me the oomph to found them.
TheArchduke
Feeling at home..
Settle on the blue circle.
Because more often then you think, any non-forested tile could contain a strategic ressource you settle on by mistake.
And don´t bother with any gambits like the GW one. I for one don´t like seeing such stuff in a game. It is like the CS slingshot, it feels artifical to me.
Because more often then you think, any non-forested tile could contain a strategic ressource you settle on by mistake.
And don´t bother with any gambits like the GW one. I for one don´t like seeing such stuff in a game. It is like the CS slingshot, it feels artifical to me.
carl corey
Deity
About getting the elephants in your fat cross: you'd lose both fur tiles. Come on! Leave the elephants for later and backtrack to 1N from the initial position and settle there. Don't spend time thinking what if you scouted a bit more and got the elephants and whatever. That's for the second/third city. They're not going anywhere.
patagonia
Emperor
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2006
- Messages
- 1,025
Settling 1S of your current location looks like the best option to me. It's a little food deficient (you'd need to farm a couple of the grasslands), but has great production and early commerce from two plains forest fur camps.
If you're at all serious about a Keshik rush (and it'd be a crime to play Mongolia and not me), that's far and away the best location for your capital based on what we can currently see.
Initial tech order would be agri > AH > mining
Build order would be either scout (grow to 2) then worker, or worker first - he'll have plenty to keep him busy whichever order you pick.
If you're at all serious about a Keshik rush (and it'd be a crime to play Mongolia and not me), that's far and away the best location for your capital based on what we can currently see.
Initial tech order would be agri > AH > mining
Build order would be either scout (grow to 2) then worker, or worker first - he'll have plenty to keep him busy whichever order you pick.
validator.. I was joking about settling on the corn. only time I ever do that is MP.
I still think 1N or 1NW of the starting position would be ok. keeping the cows in BFC would be a good idea, losing fish is not the end of the world but if the other fur gets forested over those are pretty damn good tiles at 1f 2h 5c. with cows putting out food/hammers and corn putting out high food the capitol would be rockin.
but now we're looking at setting on the 3rd turn.. brutal.
NaZ
I still think 1N or 1NW of the starting position would be ok. keeping the cows in BFC would be a good idea, losing fish is not the end of the world but if the other fur gets forested over those are pretty damn good tiles at 1f 2h 5c. with cows putting out food/hammers and corn putting out high food the capitol would be rockin.
but now we're looking at setting on the 3rd turn.. brutal.
NaZ
Structure
Chieftain
Once your scout jumps up on that hill to the W of the Eles you should have a good sense where to settle. Since you've already moved, I'm a strong supporter of continuing on up to the blue circle (or what seems best after the scout moves). Pushing your capital forward like this will give you some excellent land to backfill and help push whatever other civs may be out there away. Also having the Eles in your capital will give you a nice back up incase you do not find horses. Also it looks like the area around the blue circle may have some nice forests for chopping. This could catch you up pretty quick.
Excuse me??? If my memory serves me correctly, you've moved the Settler in every ALC except Montezuma, Alexander, Hannibal, Tokugawa & Mansa Musa (and Monty shouldn't count because that predates the ever-famous "Where to move the settler?" debate.) Perhaps what you meant to say was, "I've settled in place the last three games, let's play it OLD SCHOOL this time!"
I do think you made the right choice in moving -- forested plains furs are WAY too valuable to settle on. I would not settle on that tile, now or ever. Sucks that you won't be able work the fish, but them's the breaks -- and like you said, Fishing/Sailing would be too big a distraction at this point anyway.
So now you have 3 choices for your capital:
(1) 1S of current location (1W of closest furs.) Pros: Excellent commerce & production; coastal + fresh water; only wastes 1 turn instead of 2; pops goodie hut in 4 turns. Cons: Low food (will need to farm 1-2 grassland); takes corn away from Blue Circle city; grabbing the cows will be tricky.
(2) 1N of original start (between forested furs & lake.) Pros: Excellent food (corn + cows) and great commerce; coastal + fresh water. Cons: Wastes a 2nd turn; production kinda sucks (though not nearly as abyssmal as original start!); can't build at #1 later.
(3) Blue Circle. Pros: Good production, lots of choppable forest, gets elephants. Cons: Not coastal; low food, with fewer grassland for irrigation (and therefore much lower commerce); wastes a 2nd turn; six tiles are a complete mystery.
In my (semi-)humble opinion, option #1 seems the best choice, especially if you're concerned about early production. #2 is better for growth, and not so bad production-wise, at least in the near term. Either choice will give you 2 plains furs immediately (which really do belong in city #1, not city #2.)
I would think very, very, very carefully about settling Blue Circle right now -- mainly because taking the corn will greatly diminish the potential of #1 or #2 later on. Six mystery tiles is a HUGE gamble, especially if it means you start two turns behind!! Not that I have anything against elephants, but you don't really need them right now, and it's highly unlikely that you'll lose them to the AI.
Hmm...maybe it's time for someone to check the save and see if there's Horses...and easily rushable neighbors...nearby? A lack of both might necessitate a restart anyway.
Sorry about that. With text communication it's hard to tell when people are joking. That's why we have smilies
Getting back to the serious discussion, I think most of the suggestions people are making ignore the lack of food in this area of the map. There are no food resources between the corn and the ivory, so whatever city is founded in that area (whenever it gets founded) is going to have to work the corn. That means that giving up the fish is an even worse move than it would normally be.
As I see it, 1 S of the current location not only means the fish will never be worked (something that jerVL/kg doesn't list as a con) it also means that the only city that can work the cows will be poorly placed. This city will have to work the corn so there is no food to work a city to the north. And there are 3 unrevealed tiles in its BFC (something else that jerVL/kg doesn't mention as a con).
One tile N of the original start would have somewhat better commerce and production that the original site, but at the cost of making the fish unworkable. The problem is that if the corn is used by a city to the NW (whether its the blue circle site or something near there) that would leave only the cows and the lake tile as positive food tiles. If the city worked the two fur tiles then it would have to farm one of the grasslands to have enough food to work 2 specialists. A big difference from what the initial site offers. Working the fish, cows, lake and the one fur it would have enough food for 4 specialists without needing any farms.
There's one other major point in favor of settling the blue circle (or near there). It would put Sisiutil in a better position for placing the 2nd and 3rd cities. We know there's no good city locations directly north of the starting position, and given the south coast placement there isn't likely to be one directly west. That means the best locations for the next cities will likely be N and/or W of the blue circle site. So founding the capital there will make expanding to those sites much easier.
So moving the settler to the blue circle tile, ending this turn and then starting the next turn by moving the scout to 2W of its current position will let us know if blue circle or 1E of there is a better choice.
Galileo44
Great Scientist
A final alternative is to use Snaaty's strategy and spend 3-4 more turns moving inland to get a capital that blocks off a lot of territory. It would be an interesting gambit. Just from experiance though, the barbs love to settle where you begin, so get a fogbuster back there soon if you try this strat. (which I highly doubt)
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
Round 2: 3970 BC to 3940 BC
Okay, first off, I promise I won't play the whole game posting one turn at a time!
This is pretty much what I did:
That revealed another tribal village and--ewww--a desert hill, 1W of the Settler. Feh.
I decided to pop the hut with the Scout...
...and got another Scout, which means I'll probably skip building one and build a Worker first. I sent the new scout north to see if, perchance, there was any more grub to be found.
No such luck! Here's how the area looks:
So far, all the food is back around the starting location. There's probably some in the fog, but not knowing that for certain makes choosing a spot difficult. I've already used 2 turns and I'm getting reluctant to use too many more poking around. So, where does the capital go? Without any additional food--and with a lot of hills that will require food to be worked--the blue circle site is looking less attractive.
To me, the spot 1N of the corn looks the most attractive. It has fresh water from the lake, can work both the cows and the corn, and will make the fur available on the capital's 3rd border pop--which doesn't take too terribly long--and a fishing village on the starting location can work the fish and riverside fur later on, even with considerable overlap from the capital.
Unless anyone has any better ideas?
Okay, first off, I promise I won't play the whole game posting one turn at a time!
This is pretty much what I did:
That revealed another tribal village and--ewww--a desert hill, 1W of the Settler. Feh.
I decided to pop the hut with the Scout...
...and got another Scout, which means I'll probably skip building one and build a Worker first. I sent the new scout north to see if, perchance, there was any more grub to be found.
No such luck! Here's how the area looks:
So far, all the food is back around the starting location. There's probably some in the fog, but not knowing that for certain makes choosing a spot difficult. I've already used 2 turns and I'm getting reluctant to use too many more poking around. So, where does the capital go? Without any additional food--and with a lot of hills that will require food to be worked--the blue circle site is looking less attractive.
To me, the spot 1N of the corn looks the most attractive. It has fresh water from the lake, can work both the cows and the corn, and will make the fur available on the capital's 3rd border pop--which doesn't take too terribly long--and a fishing village on the starting location can work the fish and riverside fur later on, even with considerable overlap from the capital.
Unless anyone has any better ideas?
carl corey
Deity
Well, my opinion still stays that you shouldn't have moved that far from the original location. The furs won't do you any good if you don't work them. You do, then they're excellent tiles. If you just trade them away you've lost the equivalent of probably a gold mine and a half. As I said before, you can get elephants and production for your second city which could be placed right where you're standing to share the corn if it needs to grow, or a little farther north if you want. Or you can place your capital here and second city 1N of initial position, but you'd lose the Bureaucracy bonus applied to the commerce from fur. I'd still rather have both furs and less water tiles than fish + 1 worked fur and 1 settled on.
As I said before, you can get elephants and production for your second city which could be placed right where you're standing to share the corn if it needs to grow, or a little farther north if you want. Or you can place your capital here and second city 1N of initial position, but you'd lose the Bureaucracy bonus applied to the commerce from fur. I'd still rather have both furs and less water tiles than fish + 1 worked fur and 1 settled on.You know you're in trouble when your settler is selected and there are NO blue circles. 
At this point I vote for moving 1E and settling. It gives you corn, plains ivory, three hills, it's riverside and has a fair number of grassland tiles (mostly riverside) and forests. It's a little lite on food, but the map isn't cooperating there so there's really no help for that. The western furs can also be hooked up after the second border expansion.
Moving 1N of the corn would waste another turn and leave you with even less production and food potential. And more overlap with a city founded at the initial settler position.
At this point I vote for moving 1E and settling. It gives you corn, plains ivory, three hills, it's riverside and has a fair number of grassland tiles (mostly riverside) and forests. It's a little lite on food, but the map isn't cooperating there so there's really no help for that. The western furs can also be hooked up after the second border expansion.
Moving 1N of the corn would waste another turn and leave you with even less production and food potential. And more overlap with a city founded at the initial settler position.
